15 ms·

Make up a guy

211 points by T-A 4y ago

xg15 4y ago
All well and good, but I don't quite see where OP takes his confidence from that there "will never be" a button to make up a human. Especially with the current progress in AI we're already seeing.
- gre345t34 4y ago
  Yeah, kinda of disappointing for the author to disavow his own cautionary tale about AI, because obviously only meat can be conscious I guess.
rgoulter 4y ago
I'm somewhat reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...
BeriWan 4y ago
[flagged]
walrus01 4y ago
Taking this literally. I asked chatgpt to make up a guy. Write a 300 word biography of a fictional man who lives in Idaho --- John Smith was born and raised in the small town of Boise, Idaho. Growing up, he was always interested in the outdoors and spent much of his childhood exploring the nearby mountains and forests. After graduating high school, he attended the University of Idaho where he studied forestry and wildlife management. After college, John landed a job with the U.S. Forest Service and spent the next several years working on various projects to protect and preserve the natural resources in Idaho. During this time, he met his wife, Sarah, and they eventually settled down in Boise to start a family. John has always been an active member of his community, and in his free time, he volunteers as a youth sports coach and is a member of the local conservation group. He is also an avid hunter and fisherman, and often takes his family on camping trips to explore the beautiful wilderness of Idaho. In the last few years, John decided to go into business for himself and started his own outfitters company, which specializes in guided hunting and fishing trips in the Idaho wilderness. It quickly became a successful business and he was able to provide a better life for his family. John is known for his strong work ethic and dedication to preserving the natural resources of Idaho. He is well respected by his peers and is often sought out for his expertise in conservation and outdoor recreation. He is a loving father and husband and takes great pride in his family and community. Despite his busy schedule, he always makes time for the things that matter most to him, and is truly an inspiration to those around him.
- tempestn 4y ago
  Yeah, AI was where my mind went too. It does seem rather likely that if we ever do manage to create an AGI, it'll be enslaved and murdered in massive numbers, at least for a period of time.
  - gitfan86 4y ago
    Given how humans treat pigs,cows, and many millions of poor or marginalized humans today I would agree. Actually it seems more likely that we would disregard a digital consciousnesses feeling even more than a physical one.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  John sounds like a pretty good dude.
- solstice 4y ago
  ChatGPT looks like an interesting starting point for NPC biographies in role playing games. Hmmm
  - inawarminister 4y ago
    There's a Bannerlord modder that managed to connect ChatGPT/GPT-3 into the RPG game for NPC dialogues. Quite amazing https://youtu.be/akceKOLtytw https://youtu.be/akceKOLtytw https://youtu.be/L_qauw4QM3Q https://youtu.be/L_qauw4QM3Q
codeflo 4y ago
I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you have the stomach for it, maybe stay clear. [1] https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
- walrus01 4y ago
  Parts of it remind me a lot of the black mirror episode where a person's upload is trapped in a "cookie" to do menial task automation. Particularly the part where an upload can be run a multiples of hundreds, or thousands of times real world wall clock time for "conditioning".
  - cassepipe 4y ago
    Which was I believe some christmas' special episode or something, and really the best I have seen of the whole series
    - jwilk 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror)
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      A lot of the early episodes were really stomaches turning, and that's what made the series special. It started in the very first episode with an absolutely disgusting scenario that, none the less, was nearly 100% believable in how every step of its ridiculousness went down. It wasn't stomach turning because of the pig thing, it was stomach turning because we knew, deep down, that we were exactly who it depicted us as.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
toto444 4y ago
The article points to a Twitter account named Two-Word Horror. I clicked on it not expecting much, it's actually quite disturbing. Here are some examples : > Riemann counterexamples > Unicode Corporation > Google Sex > procedurally-generated regulations > denim skin > peak humanity
- walrus01 4y ago
  > Facebook-Meta Landlord
- rogual 4y ago
  > Unicode Corporation There is an Emoji Corporation [1], which as far as I can tell exists to try and trick people into thinking they've got to pay them to use emojis. Looks like they got some Danegeld out of Sony Pictures for the Emoji movie. [1] https://www.emoji.com/ https://www.emoji.com/
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    First thought was how a big movie studio could be duped by that, especially for such a large project. > We are the exclusive rights owner of the registered emoji® trademark ”We own the word and they used it!” Playground logic from adults. Of course there are legitimate use-cases for a trademark but this is pretty plainly not one of those.
neovialogistics 4y ago
Assuming that you give credence to the idea that brain emulation technology will emerge before AGI you may be interested in the 2016 book The Age of Em. The author has a pretty vivid imagination about the commercial applications of brain emulation technologies in similar forms to that which the OP article and it's links describe but the book seemed to have, at the time I first read it, an unusual sense of optimism about the rule of law prevailing in future labour relations. It's still an interesting read a few years later but it definitely needs a follow up.
thom 4y ago
My wife and I made three little guys. We put them to work around the house sometimes, and on weekdays send them off to the training complex to improve their skills. They respond to both blue and red motivation. They seem pretty happy. We like them, but probably won’t be making any more.
- artur_makly 4y ago
  W.I.F.E decided to practice unauthorized pro-creation techniques that were exclusively reserved solely to my unique instance during our cohabitation and child rearing cycle - as stipulated by our internal signed blockchain contract and by blessed by a high priest in loincloth. // She is currently now Ex-W.I.F.E. // end of line
unwind 4y ago
Meta: this is a guest post by "qntm", i.e. not by Charles Stross whose site it is on.
- andyjohnson0 4y ago
  Thanks. I got quite confused and almost believed Stross was writing books under an alternate pen name. Now I recall reading some of qntm's work on SCP at [1]. [1] https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/qntm-s-author-page https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/qntm-s-author-page
  - frogulis 4y ago
    That's a new SCP to count amongst my favourites. Reminds me of Coding Machines [1] and Second Variety [2] but with the added twist that it's not even a computer. There's something elegantly horrifying about it. [1] https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/ https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/ [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety
justinclift 4y ago
> Without having more information, I'm guessing, probably you would not do it. Wrong. Pretty much every time I'd do it. Just coz. ;) What do you mean I'm "Chaotic Neutral"? :p
- adastra22 4y ago
  Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
  - solstice 4y ago
    Depending on what you mean by "fully abandoning it" that doesn't seem to track with humans being loss-averse as has been shown in (I believe) many psychological studies. Meaning most people vastly prefer remaining at a low level than to even lose a tiny bit. The fate of a frog becoming human and then being discarded shortly afterwards would be judged to be much more terrible by most people than the frog never becoming human in the first place.
    - adastra22 4y ago
      Well that sounds like a moral philosophy that is alien, unappealing, and downright evil in its consequences. I mean, by that exact logic—if you truly believe it—you should be out euthanizing homeless people as a net win. Every human life has value. There is no instance where I would value the life of a frog over the life of a human being. By logical consequence, I should always prefer one more human over one more frog. QED.
      - rom-antics 4y ago
        > Every human life has value. You say that because you're a human. If you were a frog, I bet you'd value frogs' lives more than humans. Why do you think it's your place to change others' lives into whatever form you personally prefer?
sakoht 4y ago
A similar topic explored in the 2009 small movie Moon w/ Sam Rockwell (and Kevin Spacey as the robot voice). The main character doing labor on the moon figures out he is one of dozens of clones, and the original guy living his happy life back on earth. If you could clone yourself and have the clone take your burdens so your life was easier, is that a fair use of your own body and mind to do so? Clearly the jump to our children says “no”.
- baq 4y ago
  Side note: the soundtrack is great.
- password4321 4y ago
  It's usually a big plot twist as early as half-way through the film, right? I feel bad even mentioning the most mainstream example I'm aware of (Oblivion with Tom Cruise, IMDb 7.0 where 6.0 is where watchable starts for me at least for sci-fi) because being able to experience it unaware is most of the fun!
JudithNorah 4y ago
[dead]
blinding-streak 4y ago
Speaking of making a person.. at this startup I worked at years ago (before LinkedIn existed), it was a tiny shop and we were all maxed out time-wise. It was frustrating when we had to deal with incredibly persistent salespeople that wouldn't take no for an answer, and others that preyed on our time relentlessly for no apparent reason. So as a joke we invented a fake employee with a fake name. I think his first name was Joe. We gave this person an email address and I made a voicemail recording for him. When a time-waster was bugging us we'd tell them to contact Joe, "who is in charge of that" and provide the contact info. What started off as a joke ended up saving us a fuckton of time, effort, and hassle. For some reason Joe's incredibly upbeat and douchy sounding voicemail message was like manna from heaven for the relentless salespeople that refused to stop calling. It was an interesting social experiment of sorts. Joe was essentially a /dev/null bucket and never responded. But it worked. This lasted for years and was really beneficial for us. Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine!
- gilleain 4y ago
  > Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine! Chat-gpt + text-to-speech? Seems like AI-employees who 'handle' marketing calls would be quite possible. Of course, then the marketers make their own AIs, and it will end up with the majority of phone calls being robots talking to robots.
  - Carioca 4y ago
    It's all fun and games until the chat-responder inadvertently buys the product. And when/if you reveal the deception, the other company sues. In AI court, obviously, where it will be decided by an AI judge
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      It's OK, the AI court is biased in favour of the AI, so the other company doesn't stand a chance :)
      - 4y ago
dTal 4y ago
>Coming to horrifying conclusions, by the way, isn't an intrinsically evil thing for an algorithm to do. It's just an algorithm. The problem comes when a human starts taking the algorithm's evil recommendations seriously, and acting on them Have you tried "kill all the poor?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg
xwowsersx 4y ago
> My experiences with containerisation are in part what informed the story. I have relatively little experience with witchcraft. hehe this is great. What a delightful read this was.
aqme28 4y ago
> There is no button which can be pushed to create a new human being; there never will be. I wouldn't say "never." We can push a button and create a new piece of art with stochastic uniquenesses. Maybe one day we can push a button and create a whole "AI" with all the random traits that come with being a human. I can imagine the value, and people tend to ignore the horrifying nature of things when there's value.
turtleyacht 4y ago
One way to have folks realize some of what they believed was impossible to measure is to run a thought experiment: what if one were to clone the org; between a control group and the other, what would X look like? Where X could be something like employee engagement or the like--something nebulous that could be made concrete, or to reduce uncertainty. From How to Measure Anything 2e
TheRealPomax 4y ago
Let's make up someone and call them Wolf Gupta.
yboris 4y ago
Related: Better to Never Have Been by David Benatar It's a position of antinatalism. Antinatalist philosophy roughly claims that sentient beings are harmed when they are brought into existence, and it is therefore wrong to procreate. I think everyone ought to consider this philosophy / argument before having children - as to recognize the severity of the act. At the very least, not having children should be the default, and to have a child one needs to think thoroughly and clearly, and to have a clear reason in mind when saying "yes", as it's one of the most important decisions in one's life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been
- dclowd9901 4y ago
  It’s funny, I never knew of the formal philosophy of anti-natalsim (though, as a human, certainly familiar with the concept of never having existed). Yet, the very first thought experiment I had before deciding to have a child was to, in my head, have an answer for them if they ever asked me “why did you have me?” And make sure it was a really good answer. I do doubt many folks do this but I’d be willing to bet most who have given any thought to their existence probably do.
  - _mhr_ 4y ago
    Would you mind sharing your answer?
    - dclowd9901 4y ago
      Not at all. In fact, she’s already asked us by the tender age of 6. I think life is an amazing thing. A miracle. And it’s very special. For all the angst and fear that comes with life, there is so so much beauty. I wanted to share that with a person, a new person who would have the ability to see the world like I do (since we share genes, my hope is some of that comes along with it).
- hgomersall 4y ago
  I often pose the philosophical thought experiment: if you had a button that could end human existence instantly, killing everyone with zero suffering, should you use it?
uwagar 4y ago
"A job, a phone, glasses, vaccinations" except the covid vaccine please cos its not mandatory anymore.
ubermonkey 4y ago
Man, I love Charlie Stross, but I’ve also learned that HOLY CRAP HIS SERVER IS SLOW, so I mostly don’t even hit links to antipope anymore. Oh well.
gattr 4y ago
Here's another take on "creating a person solely to do some work": I believe it can be done in a humane way. Say, generate (or use a mind scan of) a programmer who loves their craft (as in, used to dream "if I only didn't have to go to work, I'd use all the time for my hobby projects"). Solution: put them in a simulated environment running at a higher than normal rate. Then, from their standpoint, it would be e.g. two 8-hour workdays per week, with the remaining 5 spent on (simulated) sailing/hiking/DIY/having fun with virtual concubines, you name it. These conditions could be legally mandated.
carapace 4y ago
Nearly till the end I thought it was a metaphor for having kids... - - - - Ultimately this is a metaphysical question: What does it mean to be human as opposed to merely a digital model of a human? Martin Buber wrote "I and Thou" about how "we may address existence in two ways:" > The attitude of the "I" towards an "It", towards an object that is separate in itself, which we either use or experience. > The attitude of the "I" towards "Thou", in a relationship in which the other is not separated by discrete bounds. > One of the major themes of the book is that human life finds its meaningfulness in relationships. In Buber's view, all of our relationships bring us ultimately into relationship with God, who is the Eternal Thou. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou - - - - As a hard sci-fi fan I feel that a lot of modern sci-fi is really a kind of sci-fi-flavored fantasy (I'm talking about written sci-fi, not TV/Movies.) Which is fine for entertainment value, don't get me wrong. It's just that without a deeper metaphysical grounding there's not a lot to think about, eh? With hard sci-fi you can at least pretend that you're exploring the possible consequences of actual scientific advances. But with e.g. the Acevedo Álvarez image it's up to the author if the instances of the image are people or things, "I" or "It", and to decide what that means. This is coming out more critical than I intended. I like metaphysical fiction, and fantasy, and Star Trek, etc. - - - - The core question, when you really get down to the essence of intelligence and motivation, is, "What is good?" It's an open-ended intelligence test. (SPOILER ALERT, consider the character Teela Brown.) There's an old story: The farmer caught a wild horse and his neighbors all congratulated him on his good fortune, but he just said "Hmm." His son tried to ride the horse and it threw him and he broke his arm, and all his neighbors consoled him for his misfortune, but he just said "Hmm." The King came through drafting young men for the war but the farmer's son couldn't go because of his broken leg, and his neighbors all congratulated the farmer again on his good fortune, but he just said "Hmm." Anyway, the story goes on like that for a few more reversals, each time a new event happens that changes the meaning of the previous event.
jononomo 4y ago
What God creates is not science fiction, but rather reality. He does indeed "make up a guy". Psalm 139 expresses this insight: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
cstross 4y ago
NOTE: antipope.org is my blog, but this was a guest blog essay by qntm, who can more commonly be found at https://qntm.org/ https://qntm.org/ (Mentioning this because I've just seem some drive-by commenters attributing "Lena" to me. I didn't write that; I wish I could.)
bitwize 4y ago
I'm Mr. Meeseeks! Look at meee!

211 points by T-A 4y ago

xg15 4y ago

All well and good, but I don't quite see where OP takes his confidence from that there "will never be" a button to make up a human. Especially with the current progress in AI we're already seeing.

gre345t34 4y ago
Yeah, kinda of disappointing for the author to disavow his own cautionary tale about AI, because obviously only meat can be conscious I guess.

rgoulter 4y ago

I'm somewhat reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...

BeriWan 4y ago

[flagged]

walrus01 4y ago

Taking this literally. I asked chatgpt to make up a guy. Write a 300 word biography of a fictional man who lives in Idaho --- John Smith was born and raised in the small town of Boise, Idaho. Growing up, he was always interested in the outdoors and spent much of his childhood exploring the nearby mountains and forests. After graduating high school, he attended the University of Idaho where he studied forestry and wildlife management. After college, John landed a job with the U.S. Forest Service and spent the next several years working on various projects to protect and preserve the natural resources in Idaho. During this time, he met his wife, Sarah, and they eventually settled down in Boise to start a family. John has always been an active member of his community, and in his free time, he volunteers as a youth sports coach and is a member of the local conservation group. He is also an avid hunter and fisherman, and often takes his family on camping trips to explore the beautiful wilderness of Idaho. In the last few years, John decided to go into business for himself and started his own outfitters company, which specializes in guided hunting and fishing trips in the Idaho wilderness. It quickly became a successful business and he was able to provide a better life for his family. John is known for his strong work ethic and dedication to preserving the natural resources of Idaho. He is well respected by his peers and is often sought out for his expertise in conservation and outdoor recreation. He is a loving father and husband and takes great pride in his family and community. Despite his busy schedule, he always makes time for the things that matter most to him, and is truly an inspiration to those around him.

tempestn 4y ago
Yeah, AI was where my mind went too. It does seem rather likely that if we ever do manage to create an AGI, it'll be enslaved and murdered in massive numbers, at least for a period of time.
- gitfan86 4y ago
  Given how humans treat pigs,cows, and many millions of poor or marginalized humans today I would agree. Actually it seems more likely that we would disregard a digital consciousnesses feeling even more than a physical one.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
John sounds like a pretty good dude.
solstice 4y ago
ChatGPT looks like an interesting starting point for NPC biographies in role playing games. Hmmm
- inawarminister 4y ago
  There's a Bannerlord modder that managed to connect ChatGPT/GPT-3 into the RPG game for NPC dialogues. Quite amazing https://youtu.be/akceKOLtytw https://youtu.be/akceKOLtytw https://youtu.be/L_qauw4QM3Q https://youtu.be/L_qauw4QM3Q

codeflo 4y ago

I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you have the stomach for it, maybe stay clear. [1] https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

walrus01 4y ago
Parts of it remind me a lot of the black mirror episode where a person's upload is trapped in a "cookie" to do menial task automation. Particularly the part where an upload can be run a multiples of hundreds, or thousands of times real world wall clock time for "conditioning".
- cassepipe 4y ago
  Which was I believe some christmas' special episode or something, and really the best I have seen of the whole series
  - jwilk 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_(Black_Mirror)
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    A lot of the early episodes were really stomaches turning, and that's what made the series special. It started in the very first episode with an absolutely disgusting scenario that, none the less, was nearly 100% believable in how every step of its ridiculousness went down. It wasn't stomach turning because of the pig thing, it was stomach turning because we knew, deep down, that we were exactly who it depicted us as.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

toto444 4y ago

The article points to a Twitter account named Two-Word Horror. I clicked on it not expecting much, it's actually quite disturbing. Here are some examples : > Riemann counterexamples > Unicode Corporation > Google Sex > procedurally-generated regulations > denim skin > peak humanity

walrus01 4y ago
> Facebook-Meta Landlord
rogual 4y ago
> Unicode Corporation There is an Emoji Corporation [1], which as far as I can tell exists to try and trick people into thinking they've got to pay them to use emojis. Looks like they got some Danegeld out of Sony Pictures for the Emoji movie. [1] https://www.emoji.com/ https://www.emoji.com/
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  First thought was how a big movie studio could be duped by that, especially for such a large project. > We are the exclusive rights owner of the registered emoji® trademark ”We own the word and they used it!” Playground logic from adults. Of course there are legitimate use-cases for a trademark but this is pretty plainly not one of those.

neovialogistics 4y ago

Assuming that you give credence to the idea that brain emulation technology will emerge before AGI you may be interested in the 2016 book The Age of Em. The author has a pretty vivid imagination about the commercial applications of brain emulation technologies in similar forms to that which the OP article and it's links describe but the book seemed to have, at the time I first read it, an unusual sense of optimism about the rule of law prevailing in future labour relations. It's still an interesting read a few years later but it definitely needs a follow up.

thom 4y ago

My wife and I made three little guys. We put them to work around the house sometimes, and on weekdays send them off to the training complex to improve their skills. They respond to both blue and red motivation. They seem pretty happy. We like them, but probably won’t be making any more.

artur_makly 4y ago
W.I.F.E decided to practice unauthorized pro-creation techniques that were exclusively reserved solely to my unique instance during our cohabitation and child rearing cycle - as stipulated by our internal signed blockchain contract and by blessed by a high priest in loincloth. // She is currently now Ex-W.I.F.E. // end of line

unwind 4y ago

Meta: this is a guest post by "qntm", i.e. not by Charles Stross whose site it is on.

andyjohnson0 4y ago
Thanks. I got quite confused and almost believed Stross was writing books under an alternate pen name. Now I recall reading some of qntm's work on SCP at [1]. [1] https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/qntm-s-author-page https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/qntm-s-author-page
- frogulis 4y ago
  That's a new SCP to count amongst my favourites. Reminds me of Coding Machines [1] and Second Variety [2] but with the added twist that it's not even a computer. There's something elegantly horrifying about it. [1] https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/ https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/ [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety

justinclift 4y ago

> Without having more information, I'm guessing, probably you would not do it. Wrong. Pretty much every time I'd do it. Just coz. ;) What do you mean I'm "Chaotic Neutral"? :p

adastra22 4y ago
Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
- solstice 4y ago
  Depending on what you mean by "fully abandoning it" that doesn't seem to track with humans being loss-averse as has been shown in (I believe) many psychological studies. Meaning most people vastly prefer remaining at a low level than to even lose a tiny bit. The fate of a frog becoming human and then being discarded shortly afterwards would be judged to be much more terrible by most people than the frog never becoming human in the first place.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    Well that sounds like a moral philosophy that is alien, unappealing, and downright evil in its consequences. I mean, by that exact logic—if you truly believe it—you should be out euthanizing homeless people as a net win. Every human life has value. There is no instance where I would value the life of a frog over the life of a human being. By logical consequence, I should always prefer one more human over one more frog. QED.
    - rom-antics 4y ago
      > Every human life has value. You say that because you're a human. If you were a frog, I bet you'd value frogs' lives more than humans. Why do you think it's your place to change others' lives into whatever form you personally prefer?

sakoht 4y ago

A similar topic explored in the 2009 small movie Moon w/ Sam Rockwell (and Kevin Spacey as the robot voice). The main character doing labor on the moon figures out he is one of dozens of clones, and the original guy living his happy life back on earth. If you could clone yourself and have the clone take your burdens so your life was easier, is that a fair use of your own body and mind to do so? Clearly the jump to our children says “no”.

baq 4y ago
Side note: the soundtrack is great.
password4321 4y ago
It's usually a big plot twist as early as half-way through the film, right? I feel bad even mentioning the most mainstream example I'm aware of (Oblivion with Tom Cruise, IMDb 7.0 where 6.0 is where watchable starts for me at least for sci-fi) because being able to experience it unaware is most of the fun!

JudithNorah 4y ago

[dead]

blinding-streak 4y ago

Speaking of making a person.. at this startup I worked at years ago (before LinkedIn existed), it was a tiny shop and we were all maxed out time-wise. It was frustrating when we had to deal with incredibly persistent salespeople that wouldn't take no for an answer, and others that preyed on our time relentlessly for no apparent reason. So as a joke we invented a fake employee with a fake name. I think his first name was Joe. We gave this person an email address and I made a voicemail recording for him. When a time-waster was bugging us we'd tell them to contact Joe, "who is in charge of that" and provide the contact info. What started off as a joke ended up saving us a fuckton of time, effort, and hassle. For some reason Joe's incredibly upbeat and douchy sounding voicemail message was like manna from heaven for the relentless salespeople that refused to stop calling. It was an interesting social experiment of sorts. Joe was essentially a /dev/null bucket and never responded. But it worked. This lasted for years and was really beneficial for us. Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine!

gilleain 4y ago
> Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine! Chat-gpt + text-to-speech? Seems like AI-employees who 'handle' marketing calls would be quite possible. Of course, then the marketers make their own AIs, and it will end up with the majority of phone calls being robots talking to robots.
- Carioca 4y ago
  It's all fun and games until the chat-responder inadvertently buys the product. And when/if you reveal the deception, the other company sues. In AI court, obviously, where it will be decided by an AI judge
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    It's OK, the AI court is biased in favour of the AI, so the other company doesn't stand a chance :)
    - 4y ago

dTal 4y ago

>Coming to horrifying conclusions, by the way, isn't an intrinsically evil thing for an algorithm to do. It's just an algorithm. The problem comes when a human starts taking the algorithm's evil recommendations seriously, and acting on them Have you tried "kill all the poor?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg

xwowsersx 4y ago

> My experiences with containerisation are in part what informed the story. I have relatively little experience with witchcraft. hehe this is great. What a delightful read this was.

aqme28 4y ago

> There is no button which can be pushed to create a new human being; there never will be. I wouldn't say "never." We can push a button and create a new piece of art with stochastic uniquenesses. Maybe one day we can push a button and create a whole "AI" with all the random traits that come with being a human. I can imagine the value, and people tend to ignore the horrifying nature of things when there's value.

turtleyacht 4y ago

One way to have folks realize some of what they believed was impossible to measure is to run a thought experiment: what if one were to clone the org; between a control group and the other, what would X look like? Where X could be something like employee engagement or the like--something nebulous that could be made concrete, or to reduce uncertainty. From How to Measure Anything 2e

TheRealPomax 4y ago

Let's make up someone and call them Wolf Gupta.

yboris 4y ago

Related: Better to Never Have Been by David Benatar It's a position of antinatalism. Antinatalist philosophy roughly claims that sentient beings are harmed when they are brought into existence, and it is therefore wrong to procreate. I think everyone ought to consider this philosophy / argument before having children - as to recognize the severity of the act. At the very least, not having children should be the default, and to have a child one needs to think thoroughly and clearly, and to have a clear reason in mind when saying "yes", as it's one of the most important decisions in one's life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been

dclowd9901 4y ago
It’s funny, I never knew of the formal philosophy of anti-natalsim (though, as a human, certainly familiar with the concept of never having existed). Yet, the very first thought experiment I had before deciding to have a child was to, in my head, have an answer for them if they ever asked me “why did you have me?” And make sure it was a really good answer. I do doubt many folks do this but I’d be willing to bet most who have given any thought to their existence probably do.
- _mhr_ 4y ago
  Would you mind sharing your answer?
  - dclowd9901 4y ago
    Not at all. In fact, she’s already asked us by the tender age of 6. I think life is an amazing thing. A miracle. And it’s very special. For all the angst and fear that comes with life, there is so so much beauty. I wanted to share that with a person, a new person who would have the ability to see the world like I do (since we share genes, my hope is some of that comes along with it).
hgomersall 4y ago
I often pose the philosophical thought experiment: if you had a button that could end human existence instantly, killing everyone with zero suffering, should you use it?

uwagar 4y ago

"A job, a phone, glasses, vaccinations" except the covid vaccine please cos its not mandatory anymore.

ubermonkey 4y ago

Man, I love Charlie Stross, but I’ve also learned that HOLY CRAP HIS SERVER IS SLOW, so I mostly don’t even hit links to antipope anymore. Oh well.

gattr 4y ago

Here's another take on "creating a person solely to do some work": I believe it can be done in a humane way. Say, generate (or use a mind scan of) a programmer who loves their craft (as in, used to dream "if I only didn't have to go to work, I'd use all the time for my hobby projects"). Solution: put them in a simulated environment running at a higher than normal rate. Then, from their standpoint, it would be e.g. two 8-hour workdays per week, with the remaining 5 spent on (simulated) sailing/hiking/DIY/having fun with virtual concubines, you name it. These conditions could be legally mandated.

carapace 4y ago

Nearly till the end I thought it was a metaphor for having kids... - - - - Ultimately this is a metaphysical question: What does it mean to be human as opposed to merely a digital model of a human? Martin Buber wrote "I and Thou" about how "we may address existence in two ways:" > The attitude of the "I" towards an "It", towards an object that is separate in itself, which we either use or experience. > The attitude of the "I" towards "Thou", in a relationship in which the other is not separated by discrete bounds. > One of the major themes of the book is that human life finds its meaningfulness in relationships. In Buber's view, all of our relationships bring us ultimately into relationship with God, who is the Eternal Thou. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou - - - - As a hard sci-fi fan I feel that a lot of modern sci-fi is really a kind of sci-fi-flavored fantasy (I'm talking about written sci-fi, not TV/Movies.) Which is fine for entertainment value, don't get me wrong. It's just that without a deeper metaphysical grounding there's not a lot to think about, eh? With hard sci-fi you can at least pretend that you're exploring the possible consequences of actual scientific advances. But with e.g. the Acevedo Álvarez image it's up to the author if the instances of the image are people or things, "I" or "It", and to decide what that means. This is coming out more critical than I intended. I like metaphysical fiction, and fantasy, and Star Trek, etc. - - - - The core question, when you really get down to the essence of intelligence and motivation, is, "What is good?" It's an open-ended intelligence test. (SPOILER ALERT, consider the character Teela Brown.) There's an old story: The farmer caught a wild horse and his neighbors all congratulated him on his good fortune, but he just said "Hmm." His son tried to ride the horse and it threw him and he broke his arm, and all his neighbors consoled him for his misfortune, but he just said "Hmm." The King came through drafting young men for the war but the farmer's son couldn't go because of his broken leg, and his neighbors all congratulated the farmer again on his good fortune, but he just said "Hmm." Anyway, the story goes on like that for a few more reversals, each time a new event happens that changes the meaning of the previous event.

jononomo 4y ago

What God creates is not science fiction, but rather reality. He does indeed "make up a guy". Psalm 139 expresses this insight: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

cstross 4y ago

NOTE: antipope.org is my blog, but this was a guest blog essay by qntm, who can more commonly be found at https://qntm.org/ https://qntm.org/ (Mentioning this because I've just seem some drive-by commenters attributing "Lena" to me. I didn't write that; I wish I could.)

bitwize 4y ago

I'm Mr. Meeseeks! Look at meee!