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Surprised no-one here is talking about programming/startup jobs in China. I know there is a small Chinese-based hacker set on HN, so maybe they'll show up later

by IsaacL 15y ago

Surprised no-one here is talking about programming/startup jobs in China. I know there is a small Chinese-based hacker set on HN, so maybe they'll show up later to chime in with more expert opinions. Basically I've been planning for a few years to make China the focus of my 20s, thinking that being at the convergence of technology and a rising superpower would be pretty powerful. Taught English there in 2007, travelled there again in 2009, studied in HK in 2010 and interned for a games startup in Chengdu last year. Still, my current plan for the next few years is to stay in the UK - the main reason is that salaries for programmers in China just aren't that attractive. Also, if you want a serious career in China (in whatever sector - counting entrepreneurship as a career here) - a lot of people have advised me that it helps to gain a track record in the West before making a serious move out there. Note: the following is a mix of experience, second-hand reports and conjecture, I'd really appreciate someone in the know telling me where I'm wrong. As a graduate programmer competing with Chinese graduates, it looks like salaries are between 5000 and 10000 RMB/mo, depending on location. If you can somehow leverage your foreignerness, you can get more, though I can't think of many ways to do that in the tech industry. Experienced technical management is in high demand, but not really an option straight out of university. Joining a big tech company (Tencent, Baidu, Shanda etc) and hoping to work your way up isn't that great an option, since there's no reason you'll be able to outcompete your hungrier Chinese colleagues. Joining a startup, maybe, but you'll still have to find a way to contribute beyond programming to make a better salary than the next FOB laowai teaching English or pretending to be a DJ. Starting a startup is of course an option, but even riskier out there (I'd feel able to start a tech startup in the West right now, wouldn't think of doing it in China without a few more years real-world experience). Anyone actually working in China's tech industry with alternative views? Would love to hear them.

Newgy 15y ago
I had your gameplan, but in the late 1990s. Spent a couple years in China, struggled with a number of issues, including significant cultural and language barriers with the local programming team. My advice: only go to China as a expatriate hire with an established multinational firm.
seanmcdirmid 15y ago
I make much more than 10K a month in Beijing without leveraging my foreign-ness, most of my Chinese colleagues pull similar salaries. A new graduate from a decent school could expect to make 18 or 20K a month, a newly minted PhD probably more. Laowai startups here often don't pay well and look for low-end talent accordingly, its nice to access low-end talent but you get what you pay for. For my friends who run startups in the 'jing, it works for them but just barely. One of my American friends just did a stint at a big Chinese tech company. He was willing to immerse himself, but the cultural differences were just too great. They had time cards for software developers for crying out loud (and no, it wasn't a consulting company)! Suffice it to say he's decided to do a startup.
petermcd 15y ago
I've been working in tech in Beijing for 9 years. Many multinational companies will give you a bit of a bump (perhaps in the form of a higher working grade) since you're from overseas, but it's not huge. To earn that, the company might expect you to help with communication/project management. One tactic I've seen work in professional services (lawyers, accounts I've met here) is to just take whatever job you can find when you show up, and then, after a year, once you've built a bit of a network and have proven you can hack it in China, to move on to something that pays more. Another option is to do something entrepreneurial. I know folks who source products from China that they then sell online via their own e-commerce sites.

by IsaacL 15y ago

Newgy 15y ago

I had your gameplan, but in the late 1990s. Spent a couple years in China, struggled with a number of issues, including significant cultural and language barriers with the local programming team. My advice: only go to China as a expatriate hire with an established multinational firm.

seanmcdirmid 15y ago

I make much more than 10K a month in Beijing without leveraging my foreign-ness, most of my Chinese colleagues pull similar salaries. A new graduate from a decent school could expect to make 18 or 20K a month, a newly minted PhD probably more. Laowai startups here often don't pay well and look for low-end talent accordingly, its nice to access low-end talent but you get what you pay for. For my friends who run startups in the 'jing, it works for them but just barely. One of my American friends just did a stint at a big Chinese tech company. He was willing to immerse himself, but the cultural differences were just too great. They had time cards for software developers for crying out loud (and no, it wasn't a consulting company)! Suffice it to say he's decided to do a startup.

petermcd 15y ago

I've been working in tech in Beijing for 9 years. Many multinational companies will give you a bit of a bump (perhaps in the form of a higher working grade) since you're from overseas, but it's not huge. To earn that, the company might expect you to help with communication/project management. One tactic I've seen work in professional services (lawyers, accounts I've met here) is to just take whatever job you can find when you show up, and then, after a year, once you've built a bit of a network and have proven you can hack it in China, to move on to something that pays more. Another option is to do something entrepreneurial. I know folks who source products from China that they then sell online via their own e-commerce sites.