9 ms·

Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age" has a fake AI "character" -- a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries (

Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age" has a fake AI "character" -- a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries (reminiscent of the Mechanical Turk, a supposed chess playing automaton that actually contained a small person). There's an old observation from Arthur C. Clarke, that sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. One thing that learning how magic tricks are performed taught me is that magicians typically do their fake magic by doing an unreasonable amount of work behind the scenes -- "magic" in the real world is often just doing a large amount of work that people don't realize is happening. Given all that it seems appropriate that the new "real world magic" -- ML systems imitating intelligence -- really rest on a lot of hidden work by human beings. Just like magical devices like iPhones exist due to a lot of surprisingly cheap labor. Imagining otherwise is like imagining that the delicious food from a 3-star kitchen just appears from the chef's mind, without the help of all of the low-paid kitchen workers, farm workers, etc. that in reality do most of the work.

sfritz 4y ago
In Diamond Age the book is being performed by a skilled actor who is voicing many characters using a script entirely generated by the AI.
nerdponx 4y ago
> a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries I've seen this in real life before, no need for a work of fiction.
- brudgers 4y ago
  Diamond Age was first published in 1995. I don’t think I am out on an intellectual limb believing very very few people would have seen an AI written book back then.
andrepd 4y ago
>reminiscent of the Mechanical Turk, a supposed chess playing automaton that actually contained a small person Reminiscent of the Amazon Mechanical Turk, a current real-life example of exactly they.
bloodyplonker22 4y ago
You perfectly illustrate the problem with typical western thinking. The workers you refer to may be low paid when compared to the US and other western countries, but they are highly paid in their respective countries. A lot of the time, the jobs (ie: iPhone assembly, AI related) are highly sought after because they are a great alternative to the other jobs that the workers with their skill set can get. It is also a great way to get a step up the job ladder for them and new acquire skills.
- 8note 4y ago
  This is another common problem with tropical western thinking -- forgetting the historical context. Colonialism happened, and the people are so poor and desperate now because of things the west did in the past.
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    This does explain a lot of the difference in development, especially in very poor countries. And this isn’t just a result of “old”, traditional colonialism, but imperialism in the form of meddling in their internal politics. Guatemala is a great example, having had its democracy destroyed by Allen Dulles and his CIA in the 1950s. But you can also take a more recent example like the 2009 coup in Honduras, backed by Hillary Clinton.
    - worik 4y ago
      As someone who does not live in the USA Iam very glad H Clinton did not become president Impossible to know but I expect she would not have stayed out of the Syrian war. It was she who was largely responsible for the debacle in Lybia So Karen on using all that power and such a short term thinker Trump was a catastrophe for you in the USA but not really for us. Please elect an isolationist....
      - miguelazo 4y ago
        The DC establishment will do anything to prevent an isolationist from taking power-- that would begin the rollback of the sprawling empire from which they derive their largess. Trump was terrible domestically, and he was only isolationist in some areas (certainly less damaging overall than the Karen). He also appointed some usual suspects from the Deep State who are extremely interventionist (John Bolton, ffs).
krisoft 4y ago
> a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries Uhm actually :) the AI definietly writes the text itself, and takes care of Nell, and senses the environment around itself, but for plot reasons it can’t do voice synthesis. So it employs humans to read up the words. At least until Nell learns to read. So it is not just appears, but it is in fact an AI, with a veneer of human voice on it.
charlieyu1 4y ago
Reminds me of that "virtual youtubers" are actually humans behind the skin
daniel-cussen 4y ago
[dead]
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
> Mechanical Turk And also inspiration for Amazon's Mechanical Turk. [0] [0]: https://www.mturk.com/ https://www.mturk.com/
jjcon 4y ago
Not as a rule though - so many ML systems are utilizing data that is streaming in from passive sensors or transactional streams and is not human curated at all. The human aspect isn’t an intrinsic property of ML or even these algorithms only particular applications (and I would guess a minority of applications too). Given that, it seems to be a clear miss to apply that logic generally. I have to believe it most likely stems from a lack of basic understanding and competence on the authors part. Edit: Here are two examples that I have personally worked on: Global calculations of weather composite reflectivity using 20 years of historical satellite imaging data from NASA Superior RF demodulation (under certain circumstances) using RF transmissions as received and sent. Both of these utilize modern ML imaging models, neither require any human labeling only streaming data (which in these cases began collection long before modern ML techniques were in widespread use). The applications in the natural sciences are endless not to mention the applications more on the business intelligence side using transactional data. Only in specific cases is human labeling required but because of the high cost of that data it is by its nature dwarfed by that which is collected naturally (not to mention often error prone). It is for that reason that techniques to ingest data that is more and more natural to collect are growing in favor.
- YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
  >> I have to believe it most likely stems from a lack of basic understanding and competence on the authors part. That is unlikely, given that one of the authors is Timint Gebru. I'm quoting below select passages from her wikipedia page indicating her background: In 2001, Gebru was accepted at Stanford University.[2][5] There she earned her Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees in electrical engineering[8] and her PhD in computer vision[9] in 2017.[10] Gebru was advised during her PhD program by Fei-Fei Li.[10] Gebru presented her doctoral research at the 2017 LDV Capital Vision Summit competition, where computer vision scientists present their work to members of industry and venture capitalists. Gebru won the competition, starting a series of collaborations with other entrepreneurs and investors.[11][12] Gebru joined Apple as an intern while at Stanford, working in their hardware division making circuitry for audio components, and was offered a full-time position the following year. Of her work as an audio engineer, her manager told Wired she was "fearless," and well-liked by her colleagues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru
wrp 4y ago
> ...magicians typically do their fake magic by doing an unreasonable amount of work behind the scenes... I probably heard this in a Penn & Teller interview, but the idea is much older... One of the keys to making a good illusion is to put far more work into it than people would think is reasonable, so it won't occur to them to think along the lines of what you actually did.
SergeAx 4y ago
Most of smartphones' magic exists due to very expensive labor of hardware and software engineers. Production of parts and assembly is 1-2% of the total work done.

sfritz 4y ago

In Diamond Age the book is being performed by a skilled actor who is voicing many characters using a script entirely generated by the AI.

nerdponx 4y ago

> a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries I've seen this in real life before, no need for a work of fiction.

brudgers 4y ago
Diamond Age was first published in 1995. I don’t think I am out on an intellectual limb believing very very few people would have seen an AI written book back then.

andrepd 4y ago

>reminiscent of the Mechanical Turk, a supposed chess playing automaton that actually contained a small person Reminiscent of the Amazon Mechanical Turk, a current real-life example of exactly they.

bloodyplonker22 4y ago

You perfectly illustrate the problem with typical western thinking. The workers you refer to may be low paid when compared to the US and other western countries, but they are highly paid in their respective countries. A lot of the time, the jobs (ie: iPhone assembly, AI related) are highly sought after because they are a great alternative to the other jobs that the workers with their skill set can get. It is also a great way to get a step up the job ladder for them and new acquire skills.

8note 4y ago
This is another common problem with tropical western thinking -- forgetting the historical context. Colonialism happened, and the people are so poor and desperate now because of things the west did in the past.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  This does explain a lot of the difference in development, especially in very poor countries. And this isn’t just a result of “old”, traditional colonialism, but imperialism in the form of meddling in their internal politics. Guatemala is a great example, having had its democracy destroyed by Allen Dulles and his CIA in the 1950s. But you can also take a more recent example like the 2009 coup in Honduras, backed by Hillary Clinton.
  - worik 4y ago
    As someone who does not live in the USA Iam very glad H Clinton did not become president Impossible to know but I expect she would not have stayed out of the Syrian war. It was she who was largely responsible for the debacle in Lybia So Karen on using all that power and such a short term thinker Trump was a catastrophe for you in the USA but not really for us. Please elect an isolationist....
    - miguelazo 4y ago
      The DC establishment will do anything to prevent an isolationist from taking power-- that would begin the rollback of the sprawling empire from which they derive their largess. Trump was terrible domestically, and he was only isolationist in some areas (certainly less damaging overall than the Karen). He also appointed some usual suspects from the Deep State who are extremely interventionist (John Bolton, ffs).

krisoft 4y ago

> a book that appears to be AI but is really operated by low-paid humans in 3rd world countries Uhm actually :) the AI definietly writes the text itself, and takes care of Nell, and senses the environment around itself, but for plot reasons it can’t do voice synthesis. So it employs humans to read up the words. At least until Nell learns to read. So it is not just appears, but it is in fact an AI, with a veneer of human voice on it.

charlieyu1 4y ago

Reminds me of that "virtual youtubers" are actually humans behind the skin

daniel-cussen 4y ago

[dead]

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

> Mechanical Turk And also inspiration for Amazon's Mechanical Turk. [0] [0]: https://www.mturk.com/ https://www.mturk.com/

jjcon 4y ago

Not as a rule though - so many ML systems are utilizing data that is streaming in from passive sensors or transactional streams and is not human curated at all. The human aspect isn’t an intrinsic property of ML or even these algorithms only particular applications (and I would guess a minority of applications too). Given that, it seems to be a clear miss to apply that logic generally. I have to believe it most likely stems from a lack of basic understanding and competence on the authors part. Edit: Here are two examples that I have personally worked on: Global calculations of weather composite reflectivity using 20 years of historical satellite imaging data from NASA Superior RF demodulation (under certain circumstances) using RF transmissions as received and sent. Both of these utilize modern ML imaging models, neither require any human labeling only streaming data (which in these cases began collection long before modern ML techniques were in widespread use). The applications in the natural sciences are endless not to mention the applications more on the business intelligence side using transactional data. Only in specific cases is human labeling required but because of the high cost of that data it is by its nature dwarfed by that which is collected naturally (not to mention often error prone). It is for that reason that techniques to ingest data that is more and more natural to collect are growing in favor.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
>> I have to believe it most likely stems from a lack of basic understanding and competence on the authors part. That is unlikely, given that one of the authors is Timint Gebru. I'm quoting below select passages from her wikipedia page indicating her background: In 2001, Gebru was accepted at Stanford University.[2][5] There she earned her Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees in electrical engineering[8] and her PhD in computer vision[9] in 2017.[10] Gebru was advised during her PhD program by Fei-Fei Li.[10] Gebru presented her doctoral research at the 2017 LDV Capital Vision Summit competition, where computer vision scientists present their work to members of industry and venture capitalists. Gebru won the competition, starting a series of collaborations with other entrepreneurs and investors.[11][12] Gebru joined Apple as an intern while at Stanford, working in their hardware division making circuitry for audio components, and was offered a full-time position the following year. Of her work as an audio engineer, her manager told Wired she was "fearless," and well-liked by her colleagues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru

wrp 4y ago

> ...magicians typically do their fake magic by doing an unreasonable amount of work behind the scenes... I probably heard this in a Penn & Teller interview, but the idea is much older... One of the keys to making a good illusion is to put far more work into it than people would think is reasonable, so it won't occur to them to think along the lines of what you actually did.

SergeAx 4y ago

Most of smartphones' magic exists due to very expensive labor of hardware and software engineers. Production of parts and assembly is 1-2% of the total work done.