4 ms·

I'm all for talking about violations of due process etc. Seriously egregious stuff going on (civil forfeiture) etc. But national security is a completely diffe

I'm all for talking about violations of due process etc. Seriously egregious stuff going on (civil forfeiture) etc. But national security is a completely different world than regular law enforcement. To me this situation just screams "fuck around and find out"

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I agree that it is probably difficult to run clandestine military aircraft research in a country that has a Bill of Rights. I prefer that sentiment over: It is probably difficult to have a Bill of Rights in a country that needs to do clandestine military aircraft research.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Totally agree. I'm not arguing we throw away the Bill of Rights. I like your other point, it will always be difficult to balance those rights while protecting military/security interests. It will always be touchy. It's one thing to go to your city/county police/government and complain loudly about rights violations, provoke confrontation, etc. This is where due process matters most in my opinion, general rule of law and due process in day to day life. It's another thing to provoke military and national security apparatus and assume you'll get the same basic response from law enforcement. I think any wise adult would know its a touchy area, best to steer clear unless you have a good reason to provoke. The people that do so are usually (not always) spies or combative/mental/tinfoil hat people with some sort of imagined axe to grind. Fuck around and find out. Better them finding out than me.
  - Hizonner 4y ago
    You should definitely not wear a short skirt while provoking the military and national security apparatus. I mean, yeah, it may be no surprise what happens to you, and maybe you want to not do it, but when you say "fuck around and find out", you are excusing them.
    - lordfrito 4y ago
      What I'm saying is that national security is serious business, America has real enemies, and people seem to forget that and just shout "rights". I mean, if I was an enemy agent I would absolutely take advantage of due process rights afforded here to blur the line between espionage related activities and civil freedoms. It's an attack vector that's easy to exploit in freedom loving countries, one the feds and spooks pay close attention to. If you go poking around a restricted base, taking photos, flying drones, don't be surprised when men in black start showing up in your life and making things difficult. I mean, is he purposely trying to make it look like he could be a foreign intelligence agent? I don't see how he can act surprised when they knocked down his door. > but when you say "fuck around and find out", you are excusing them No, it's more like I'm not excusing Arnu. His actions created this sticky situation. It was totally avoidable. From the article: > the hobbyist researcher says that America’s UFO mythology is little more than a smokescreen to hide the much more mundane reality of what goes on at Area 51: the testing of classified military projects and aircraft. OK so he openly admits that the classified stuff is why he's so interested in Area 51. > Most of these photos were not taken by me, I just published them "Not my fault"... really? > He adds that they were “not classified photos” and that they “were not taken from inside the boundary Yeah he's a genius and is confident he will get off on a technicality > One of the first things they wanted to know was: “Are there any booby traps on the property?” To Arnu, it seemed like a pretty weird thing to ask. Sounds like this guy was purposely digging for dirt, got right up to the line, then acted surprised when the national security apparatus responded. > Of course, Arnu had one particular hobby that he felt might be of interest to federal investigators: he had spent the last two decades tending to a popular blog about “Area 51 Hmmm... yeah maybe that's what this is all about. SMH I don't have sympathy for the guy in the article. He's an instigator. And an idiot. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. There are much bigger violations of due process in this country worth paying attention to.
    - molotovh 4y ago
      Point well made. This is not a military autocracy. Neither the military nor law enforcement should have any special privileges with regards to violating the law or the established rights of the citizens. Too many supposedly intelligent people have given up on the fight to keep "the law" within the bounds of the law, and it's escaped those bounds like kudzu.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  It seems like the latter is more correct, though. That is, more representative of how things actually are.
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>But national security is a completely different world than regular law enforcement. To me this situation just screams "fuck around and find out" Only in a police state. In a free society governed by laws, it doesn't matter why the government claims it needs to do something. Your Constitutional rights are sancrosanct. If the government can simply ignore your rights, the law and the Constitution by simply saying "national security", then in reality you have no rights, there is no law and the Constitution is meaningless.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

I agree that it is probably difficult to run clandestine military aircraft research in a country that has a Bill of Rights. I prefer that sentiment over: It is probably difficult to have a Bill of Rights in a country that needs to do clandestine military aircraft research.

lordfrito 4y ago
Totally agree. I'm not arguing we throw away the Bill of Rights. I like your other point, it will always be difficult to balance those rights while protecting military/security interests. It will always be touchy. It's one thing to go to your city/county police/government and complain loudly about rights violations, provoke confrontation, etc. This is where due process matters most in my opinion, general rule of law and due process in day to day life. It's another thing to provoke military and national security apparatus and assume you'll get the same basic response from law enforcement. I think any wise adult would know its a touchy area, best to steer clear unless you have a good reason to provoke. The people that do so are usually (not always) spies or combative/mental/tinfoil hat people with some sort of imagined axe to grind. Fuck around and find out. Better them finding out than me.
- Hizonner 4y ago
  You should definitely not wear a short skirt while provoking the military and national security apparatus. I mean, yeah, it may be no surprise what happens to you, and maybe you want to not do it, but when you say "fuck around and find out", you are excusing them.
  - lordfrito 4y ago
    What I'm saying is that national security is serious business, America has real enemies, and people seem to forget that and just shout "rights". I mean, if I was an enemy agent I would absolutely take advantage of due process rights afforded here to blur the line between espionage related activities and civil freedoms. It's an attack vector that's easy to exploit in freedom loving countries, one the feds and spooks pay close attention to. If you go poking around a restricted base, taking photos, flying drones, don't be surprised when men in black start showing up in your life and making things difficult. I mean, is he purposely trying to make it look like he could be a foreign intelligence agent? I don't see how he can act surprised when they knocked down his door. > but when you say "fuck around and find out", you are excusing them No, it's more like I'm not excusing Arnu. His actions created this sticky situation. It was totally avoidable. From the article: > the hobbyist researcher says that America’s UFO mythology is little more than a smokescreen to hide the much more mundane reality of what goes on at Area 51: the testing of classified military projects and aircraft. OK so he openly admits that the classified stuff is why he's so interested in Area 51. > Most of these photos were not taken by me, I just published them "Not my fault"... really? > He adds that they were “not classified photos” and that they “were not taken from inside the boundary Yeah he's a genius and is confident he will get off on a technicality > One of the first things they wanted to know was: “Are there any booby traps on the property?” To Arnu, it seemed like a pretty weird thing to ask. Sounds like this guy was purposely digging for dirt, got right up to the line, then acted surprised when the national security apparatus responded. > Of course, Arnu had one particular hobby that he felt might be of interest to federal investigators: he had spent the last two decades tending to a popular blog about “Area 51 Hmmm... yeah maybe that's what this is all about. SMH I don't have sympathy for the guy in the article. He's an instigator. And an idiot. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. There are much bigger violations of due process in this country worth paying attention to.
  - molotovh 4y ago
    Point well made. This is not a military autocracy. Neither the military nor law enforcement should have any special privileges with regards to violating the law or the established rights of the citizens. Too many supposedly intelligent people have given up on the fight to keep "the law" within the bounds of the law, and it's escaped those bounds like kudzu.
fluoridation 4y ago
It seems like the latter is more correct, though. That is, more representative of how things actually are.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

>But national security is a completely different world than regular law enforcement. To me this situation just screams "fuck around and find out" Only in a police state. In a free society governed by laws, it doesn't matter why the government claims it needs to do something. Your Constitutional rights are sancrosanct. If the government can simply ignore your rights, the law and the Constitution by simply saying "national security", then in reality you have no rights, there is no law and the Constitution is meaningless.