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Sometimes I wonder if these "ethical" articles are only put up to stop new companies from competing. Like "ok now that OpenAI Inc has a basic AI, lets be sure

Sometimes I wonder if these "ethical" articles are only put up to stop new companies from competing. Like "ok now that OpenAI Inc has a basic AI, lets be sure to close the door behind us so we don't have to deal with competing startups"

hnbad 4y ago
By that logic any revelations about bad labor conditions underlying first world products or services only serve to prevent competition from also exploiting those conditions. If your ethical conundrum is between continuing to allow the exploitation of the post-colonial third world, and to stifle competition in first world markets, I think you need to retake an ethics class because that is not a conundrum.
optimalsolver 4y ago
Would be less need for these articles if major tech companies would stop acting like villains in a sci-fi movie.
- _Algernon_ 4y ago
  Wouldn't see them "acting like villains in a sci-fi movie" if there weren't systematic economic incentives for them to act this way.
  - roughly 4y ago
    And yet, every one of these organizations consists of individuals making sets of individual decisions on an ongoing basis, who indeed face incentives as well* but also persist in making the dubious ethical decisions that the company enacts, and we can in fact judge them for this, because companies are made of people who don’t actually abdicate moral responsibility for their actions by logging into a corporate email system. *And here’s where I digress to say, again, that, indeed if you are the single mother of a child with a heart condition wholly reliant on the expensive company health care not lapsing for even a minute lest your child not just die but literally explode, taking your whole family and half the neighborhood with them, I’m not judging you. If, on the other hand, you’re a single dude between 20 and 35 with a college degree, significant assets, no debt, and a sellable skillset, yes, you’re the one I’m judging.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  did you check in which conditions and countries your shoes, t-shirts, pants, etc are manufactured?
  - roughly 4y ago
    Yes. Wherever possible, I try to be aware of the consequences of my actions, and adjust how I do things when I find they’re leading to outcomes I feel are not in alignment with my ethics.
    - pelasaco 4y ago
      Nobody cares about some possible fake words, from the internet dude. My point was more to show you that this "if major tech companies would stop acting like villains in a sci-fi movie." is wrong. Companies are companies, and aim for profit at all costs, regardless of their branch.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  Cyberpunk*
dekhn 4y ago
These articles are written to make people feel guilty about their lives. The ultimate goal is economic equalization.
- croes 4y ago
  The goal is awareness. There is no such thing as free lunch, somebody has to do the dirty work for too little money.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    Are you sure it's too little money? articles like this often report wages that sound small to a person living in western Europe or US, but when compared to people in the same economy, these salaries are often competitive. And yes, somebody has to do the dirty work.
    - godelski 4y ago
      This is why I can never understand these articles. How much is $1.46/hr? Is it a little? A lot? Average? So I head over to Google and look up the answer[0]. But everything is in yearly wages so $1.46*2080 ~= $3037. Looks like it would be a lot in Sudan or Myanmar, an average in Egypt, and not a lot in Sri Lanka or Ukraine. But are these numbers even trustworthy? We had a post about this just the other day. But we don't even know the countries that are being used! So we're back to the original question: is it a little? A lot? Average? Honestly, when I see people spout out raw numbers alarm bells go off in my head. Doesn't matter if it is wage, number of car crashes, or number of murders. We have so many fucking people on this planet that a small percentage of a large number is still a large number. There are definitely people using this in deceitful manners. There are also dumb people, but idiocracy can still be accidentally malicious. The reason it is easy to lie with statistics and data is because it is actually really difficult to compare numbers and data across differing conditions. In this case, it really does not make sense to compare the wages of an American to the wages of a Sri Lankan. The price of an apple in both places isn't equal. Still, I don't know the answer to my question. [0] https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php
chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
I believe this is a form of astroturfing and it is hard not to see this stuff. Remember all those articles about the AI winter a few years ago? In reality, there was no winter. Lot's of smart people took advantage of the opportunity and got incredibly wealthy during that period of time and now we see some of the fruits of that labour. It's just the beginning too. It's important, in my opinion, to always ask 'who benefits from me believing this?'
- ghaff 4y ago
  I'm not sure how widespread the sentiment was that there was going to be a near-term AI winter. What you did have was increasing skepticism that things like fully-realized door-to-door autonomous driving were going happen in the short-run--but a lot of the skeptics didn't think that would necessarily translate into an AI winter.
- roughly 4y ago
  I mean - > who benefits from me believing this? In the case of this article, presumably the exploited* laborers whose labor conditions might improve if the population to whom this article is addressed both became aware and started to care about the labor conditions of the people behind the systems they use. Trying to 4D chess ourselves into not having to actually address the issue at hand isn’t clever or insightful, it’s just abdication with numbers attached. * I’m not arguing whether or not the behavior described in the article actually constitutes exploitation or is just the noble hand of the market more perfectly forming working conditions - that’s not my point. The point is if you DO read the article and you DO feel that behavior’s exploitative, scratching your head over who’s got an agenda to want this thing you find abhorrent changed, as opposed to trying to change the behavior you find abhorrent, is the kind of thing people think smart people are supposed to do, and tends to contribute to more things you find abhorrent happening in the world.
  - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
    It can be both true and used for astroturfing.
- 4y ago
LatteLazy 4y ago
I wonder if they are an "inside job": doing such a terrible job of making an ethical case against AI convinces people it must be fine...
dqpb 4y ago
That's not what this article is about.
908B64B197 4y ago
I noticed "Ethics of X" is generally a great field for those who can't cut it in field X. See the "Ethics of AI crowd as an example", that seems to be mostly made of "tech adjacent" folks. Probably the best example here [0]. [0] https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter-amid-acrimonious-exchanges-on-ai-bias/ https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter...
gsatic 4y ago
That's cause people today don't just say hey look what I built. Everyone acts as if they are doing something world changing. And it's bullshit, and the backlash is natural and well deserved.
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]
brudgers 4y ago
To me, the use of cheap labor for training suggests the level of importance AI companies place on avoiding social/cultural biases in the model in two ways. 1. Companies standards would be much higher if classification was done by engineers paid engineering salaries. And engineers would be directly accountable for model biases instead of bias being excused on the basis of how sausage gets made. 2. Outsourcing classification explicitly means classification is not valuable as a core competency; not an area in which expertise is important; and not an activity deserving of the benefits of direct employment such as financial rewards correlated to business success (e.g. bonuses, raises, options, etc.).
jrochkind1 4y ago
You are imagining that someone who otherwise would start a competing company would just choose not to after reading this article? Or what?
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]

hnbad 4y ago

By that logic any revelations about bad labor conditions underlying first world products or services only serve to prevent competition from also exploiting those conditions. If your ethical conundrum is between continuing to allow the exploitation of the post-colonial third world, and to stifle competition in first world markets, I think you need to retake an ethics class because that is not a conundrum.

optimalsolver 4y ago

Would be less need for these articles if major tech companies would stop acting like villains in a sci-fi movie.

_Algernon_ 4y ago
Wouldn't see them "acting like villains in a sci-fi movie" if there weren't systematic economic incentives for them to act this way.
- roughly 4y ago
  And yet, every one of these organizations consists of individuals making sets of individual decisions on an ongoing basis, who indeed face incentives as well* but also persist in making the dubious ethical decisions that the company enacts, and we can in fact judge them for this, because companies are made of people who don’t actually abdicate moral responsibility for their actions by logging into a corporate email system. *And here’s where I digress to say, again, that, indeed if you are the single mother of a child with a heart condition wholly reliant on the expensive company health care not lapsing for even a minute lest your child not just die but literally explode, taking your whole family and half the neighborhood with them, I’m not judging you. If, on the other hand, you’re a single dude between 20 and 35 with a college degree, significant assets, no debt, and a sellable skillset, yes, you’re the one I’m judging.
pelasaco 4y ago
did you check in which conditions and countries your shoes, t-shirts, pants, etc are manufactured?
- roughly 4y ago
  Yes. Wherever possible, I try to be aware of the consequences of my actions, and adjust how I do things when I find they’re leading to outcomes I feel are not in alignment with my ethics.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    Nobody cares about some possible fake words, from the internet dude. My point was more to show you that this "if major tech companies would stop acting like villains in a sci-fi movie." is wrong. Companies are companies, and aim for profit at all costs, regardless of their branch.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
Cyberpunk*

dekhn 4y ago

These articles are written to make people feel guilty about their lives. The ultimate goal is economic equalization.

croes 4y ago
The goal is awareness. There is no such thing as free lunch, somebody has to do the dirty work for too little money.
- dekhn 4y ago
  Are you sure it's too little money? articles like this often report wages that sound small to a person living in western Europe or US, but when compared to people in the same economy, these salaries are often competitive. And yes, somebody has to do the dirty work.
  - godelski 4y ago
    This is why I can never understand these articles. How much is $1.46/hr? Is it a little? A lot? Average? So I head over to Google and look up the answer[0]. But everything is in yearly wages so $1.46*2080 ~= $3037. Looks like it would be a lot in Sudan or Myanmar, an average in Egypt, and not a lot in Sri Lanka or Ukraine. But are these numbers even trustworthy? We had a post about this just the other day. But we don't even know the countries that are being used! So we're back to the original question: is it a little? A lot? Average? Honestly, when I see people spout out raw numbers alarm bells go off in my head. Doesn't matter if it is wage, number of car crashes, or number of murders. We have so many fucking people on this planet that a small percentage of a large number is still a large number. There are definitely people using this in deceitful manners. There are also dumb people, but idiocracy can still be accidentally malicious. The reason it is easy to lie with statistics and data is because it is actually really difficult to compare numbers and data across differing conditions. In this case, it really does not make sense to compare the wages of an American to the wages of a Sri Lankan. The price of an apple in both places isn't equal. Still, I don't know the answer to my question. [0] https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

chamwislothe2nd 4y ago

I believe this is a form of astroturfing and it is hard not to see this stuff. Remember all those articles about the AI winter a few years ago? In reality, there was no winter. Lot's of smart people took advantage of the opportunity and got incredibly wealthy during that period of time and now we see some of the fruits of that labour. It's just the beginning too. It's important, in my opinion, to always ask 'who benefits from me believing this?'

ghaff 4y ago
I'm not sure how widespread the sentiment was that there was going to be a near-term AI winter. What you did have was increasing skepticism that things like fully-realized door-to-door autonomous driving were going happen in the short-run--but a lot of the skeptics didn't think that would necessarily translate into an AI winter.
roughly 4y ago
I mean - > who benefits from me believing this? In the case of this article, presumably the exploited* laborers whose labor conditions might improve if the population to whom this article is addressed both became aware and started to care about the labor conditions of the people behind the systems they use. Trying to 4D chess ourselves into not having to actually address the issue at hand isn’t clever or insightful, it’s just abdication with numbers attached. * I’m not arguing whether or not the behavior described in the article actually constitutes exploitation or is just the noble hand of the market more perfectly forming working conditions - that’s not my point. The point is if you DO read the article and you DO feel that behavior’s exploitative, scratching your head over who’s got an agenda to want this thing you find abhorrent changed, as opposed to trying to change the behavior you find abhorrent, is the kind of thing people think smart people are supposed to do, and tends to contribute to more things you find abhorrent happening in the world.
- chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
  It can be both true and used for astroturfing.
4y ago

LatteLazy 4y ago

I wonder if they are an "inside job": doing such a terrible job of making an ethical case against AI convinces people it must be fine...

dqpb 4y ago

That's not what this article is about.

908B64B197 4y ago

I noticed "Ethics of X" is generally a great field for those who can't cut it in field X. See the "Ethics of AI crowd as an example", that seems to be mostly made of "tech adjacent" folks. Probably the best example here [0]. [0] https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter-amid-acrimonious-exchanges-on-ai-bias/ https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter...

gsatic 4y ago

That's cause people today don't just say hey look what I built. Everyone acts as if they are doing something world changing. And it's bullshit, and the backlash is natural and well deserved.

kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]

brudgers 4y ago

To me, the use of cheap labor for training suggests the level of importance AI companies place on avoiding social/cultural biases in the model in two ways. 1. Companies standards would be much higher if classification was done by engineers paid engineering salaries. And engineers would be directly accountable for model biases instead of bias being excused on the basis of how sausage gets made. 2. Outsourcing classification explicitly means classification is not valuable as a core competency; not an area in which expertise is important; and not an activity deserving of the benefits of direct employment such as financial rewards correlated to business success (e.g. bonuses, raises, options, etc.).

jrochkind1 4y ago

You are imagining that someone who otherwise would start a competing company would just choose not to after reading this article? Or what?

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]