4 ms·

What?? I actually think it maps pretty well to the reality. I have seen it at a personal level in my social circle and at a broad level of civilizations.

jodrellblank 4y ago
I was going to post the same complaint as the parent comment; for example: "Hard times create strong men" - maybe, but starvation doesn't make you strong. Being dead from disease doesn't make you strong. Rising to adversity might make some people stronger, but it will harm others who survive but are damaged. It could be that the already-strong people rise to adversity and the weak get crushed by it, Darwinianly? Or that the weak endure through hard times as much as anyone because hard times are generally about health food or money and even 'weak' beggers can get enough of those to survive. Today's homeless are generally enduring lack of food, poor health, low money, and nobody considers them being made 'strong' by it, they're harmed by it. "strong men create good times" - warriors are strong, barbarian raiders were strong, unpleasant bosses who abuse their workforce and reign by terror are strong, those are horrible times. Is there a connection between strong people and good times? What about average people who are neither weak nor strong, working in concert? What about people who are generally considered weak, but are thinking long term planting the trees that will shade tomorrow, community building, etc? "good times create weak men" - do they? Do they necessarily? Why is this framing "good" as "bad"? Wouldn't going to the gym regularly and getting stronger be "good times" for someone? Wouldn't working the family farm hard, being physically strong and providing for your family, be good times and not making you weak? Is it luxury which makes people weak - previous point, do strong people create luxury specifically? "weak men create hard times" - do they? Plenty of strong people (dictators, for example) have created hard times for millions. Plenty of weak people have had no impact on the times at all. Isn't the history of progress littered with people who were "a weak and sickly child" who spent their lives hiding indoors, thinking about math, died young, and changed the world - were they making hard times? It's connected to the 'one generation makes family wealth by working hard, next generation preserves it but can't build it, next generation spends it'. In that, the hard times are where you have no money and have to work. The good times are where you have money and no work. The next hard times are where you lose the money and have to work again. But then, getting back into work and earning money is a homeless unemployed person's good times, life on the up. At the 'level of civilizations' it's far too vague to say the fall of Rome was caused by "weak men" or that the rise of Rome was caused by "hard times".
- dqpb 4y ago
  In this context, I think strong means competent.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    I interpreted is as a strong character (or mind); one that's not easily shaken (mentally) and stable. I would certainly include competence as contributing to a strong character
    - lanstin 4y ago
      Like Godel and Turing, right?
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    And then you look again at the GP, and see that the only reasonable interpretation of "strong" that phrase can have has no relation at all with competence. Or worse, because bad times create broken people. And while broken people can stand adversity, they are much less able to create something non-broken.
    - spoiler 4y ago
      Bad doesn't have to mean PTSD-inducing "walking dead" scenarios… Also, whether hardships makes or breaks you depends largely on your outlook and coping skills (this comes from someone who's had CPTSD and had to stop suicidal idealisation and learn coping skills in my late 20s). All skills diminish, if unused. Having too easy times means there's less need to "cope" It's very likely most millennials have poor coping skills due to the predominantly emotionally neglectful parenting styles the previous generation
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        > Bad doesn't have to mean PTSD-inducing "walking dead" scenarios… When people say that phrase today, "bad" literally means WWII.

jodrellblank 4y ago

I was going to post the same complaint as the parent comment; for example: "Hard times create strong men" - maybe, but starvation doesn't make you strong. Being dead from disease doesn't make you strong. Rising to adversity might make some people stronger, but it will harm others who survive but are damaged. It could be that the already-strong people rise to adversity and the weak get crushed by it, Darwinianly? Or that the weak endure through hard times as much as anyone because hard times are generally about health food or money and even 'weak' beggers can get enough of those to survive. Today's homeless are generally enduring lack of food, poor health, low money, and nobody considers them being made 'strong' by it, they're harmed by it. "strong men create good times" - warriors are strong, barbarian raiders were strong, unpleasant bosses who abuse their workforce and reign by terror are strong, those are horrible times. Is there a connection between strong people and good times? What about average people who are neither weak nor strong, working in concert? What about people who are generally considered weak, but are thinking long term planting the trees that will shade tomorrow, community building, etc? "good times create weak men" - do they? Do they necessarily? Why is this framing "good" as "bad"? Wouldn't going to the gym regularly and getting stronger be "good times" for someone? Wouldn't working the family farm hard, being physically strong and providing for your family, be good times and not making you weak? Is it luxury which makes people weak - previous point, do strong people create luxury specifically? "weak men create hard times" - do they? Plenty of strong people (dictators, for example) have created hard times for millions. Plenty of weak people have had no impact on the times at all. Isn't the history of progress littered with people who were "a weak and sickly child" who spent their lives hiding indoors, thinking about math, died young, and changed the world - were they making hard times? It's connected to the 'one generation makes family wealth by working hard, next generation preserves it but can't build it, next generation spends it'. In that, the hard times are where you have no money and have to work. The good times are where you have money and no work. The next hard times are where you lose the money and have to work again. But then, getting back into work and earning money is a homeless unemployed person's good times, life on the up. At the 'level of civilizations' it's far too vague to say the fall of Rome was caused by "weak men" or that the rise of Rome was caused by "hard times".

dqpb 4y ago
In this context, I think strong means competent.
- spoiler 4y ago
  I interpreted is as a strong character (or mind); one that's not easily shaken (mentally) and stable. I would certainly include competence as contributing to a strong character
  - lanstin 4y ago
    Like Godel and Turing, right?
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  And then you look again at the GP, and see that the only reasonable interpretation of "strong" that phrase can have has no relation at all with competence. Or worse, because bad times create broken people. And while broken people can stand adversity, they are much less able to create something non-broken.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    Bad doesn't have to mean PTSD-inducing "walking dead" scenarios… Also, whether hardships makes or breaks you depends largely on your outlook and coping skills (this comes from someone who's had CPTSD and had to stop suicidal idealisation and learn coping skills in my late 20s). All skills diminish, if unused. Having too easy times means there's less need to "cope" It's very likely most millennials have poor coping skills due to the predominantly emotionally neglectful parenting styles the previous generation
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      > Bad doesn't have to mean PTSD-inducing "walking dead" scenarios… When people say that phrase today, "bad" literally means WWII.