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A friend recently introduced me to this quote, and even though it generalises a little[1], I think it ring true: > Hard times create strong men, strong men cre

A friend recently introduced me to this quote, and even though it generalises a little[1], I think it ring true: > Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. I think we're entering that last cycle again, where people are inventing trivial hardships for themselves, because media teaches them that only a life with some type of adversity is worth living. In other words, everyone is desperate to be a protagonist in what is an extremely comfortable world, so they invent villains. Then they post about their great protagonism on social media. In part, I think, this is due to the neurosis created by the fakeness of social media. Also, since all achievements on social media are pixel-thin, it is also turning people into equally shallow reprobates. The recent trend of unironically calling people "NPCs" and "bots" just reinforces these beliefs, IMO. [1]: I also find it a bit funny we have to put these types of disclaimers everywhere, since everyone goes out of their way to be offended over trivialities

1659447091 4y ago
If we are at the "Weak men create hard times", then we are soon at the "hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men". Atleast we have that to look forward to. Seems we bring it on ourselves
snapcaster 4y ago
That quote always bothered me because I don't think it's accurate on either a personal or societal level. It's not a good model for viewing the world. It's one of those things that rings true but when you actually think about it it's hard to find it actually mapping to reality or having any predictive power
- floren 4y ago
  Right, I've never heard somebody quote it and declare that we're currently in the hard times. Its only purpose is to let other people know that you consider them unwise and soon they'll be sorry.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    That's the social media mindset I was talking about!
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  What?? I actually think it maps pretty well to the reality. I have seen it at a personal level in my social circle and at a broad level of civilizations.
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    I was going to post the same complaint as the parent comment; for example: "Hard times create strong men" - maybe, but starvation doesn't make you strong. Being dead from disease doesn't make you strong. Rising to adversity might make some people stronger, but it will harm others who survive but are damaged. It could be that the already-strong people rise to adversity and the weak get crushed by it, Darwinianly? Or that the weak endure through hard times as much as anyone because hard times are generally about health food or money and even 'weak' beggers can get enough of those to survive. Today's homeless are generally enduring lack of food, poor health, low money, and nobody considers them being made 'strong' by it, they're harmed by it. "strong men create good times" - warriors are strong, barbarian raiders were strong, unpleasant bosses who abuse their workforce and reign by terror are strong, those are horrible times. Is there a connection between strong people and good times? What about average people who are neither weak nor strong, working in concert? What about people who are generally considered weak, but are thinking long term planting the trees that will shade tomorrow, community building, etc? "good times create weak men" - do they? Do they necessarily? Why is this framing "good" as "bad"? Wouldn't going to the gym regularly and getting stronger be "good times" for someone? Wouldn't working the family farm hard, being physically strong and providing for your family, be good times and not making you weak? Is it luxury which makes people weak - previous point, do strong people create luxury specifically? "weak men create hard times" - do they? Plenty of strong people (dictators, for example) have created hard times for millions. Plenty of weak people have had no impact on the times at all. Isn't the history of progress littered with people who were "a weak and sickly child" who spent their lives hiding indoors, thinking about math, died young, and changed the world - were they making hard times? It's connected to the 'one generation makes family wealth by working hard, next generation preserves it but can't build it, next generation spends it'. In that, the hard times are where you have no money and have to work. The good times are where you have money and no work. The next hard times are where you lose the money and have to work again. But then, getting back into work and earning money is a homeless unemployed person's good times, life on the up. At the 'level of civilizations' it's far too vague to say the fall of Rome was caused by "weak men" or that the rise of Rome was caused by "hard times".
johnchristopher 4y ago
> The recent trend of unironically calling people "NPCs" and "bots" just reinforces these beliefs, IMO. I missed that one, though now that I read it I realize there's a lot of bot calling going-on on an FPS server I regularly visit. By the way, is this site done with calling regular people "normies" ?
- spoiler 4y ago
  I think calling people bots in FPS games was always a thing. It's when people have poor pathing, or make seemingly nonsensical decisions. I meant more in real life
snozolli 4y ago
I think we're entering that last cycle again, where people are inventing trivial hardships for themselves, because media teaches them that only a life with some type of adversity is worth living. I don't think that's even remotely what the quote means. You seem to be taking it as "weak men make up hardships" as opposed to "weakness leads to a broken down system and future suffering for society". For example, one might say that weakness in facing climate change will lead to hardship in the future. Another example would be that weakness in facing fascism allows it to rise and wreak havoc on society. Coincidentally, that quote is super popular among fascist-leaning types.
- spoiler 4y ago
  I meant both of those things. Have you looked at society recently? The former is currently acting as a catalyst for the latter. And speaking of fascism and intolerance for others in general: it's unfortunately getting worse. I largely blame social media and the busybodies that waste away on them... Says I, as I moonlight as a keyboard warrior on a forum; the irony doesn't escape me
  - lanstin 4y ago
    You may wish to read some books by people who have lived under fascist regimes. It is a bit more intense than being criticized by busy bodies.
    - spoiler 4y ago
      We aren't talking about regimes, though… Why move the discussion?
      - lanstin 4y ago
        If it isn’t trying to take over the government and replace a decadent democracy with the Old True Values it isn’t really fascism.
        4y ago
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
For anyone who doesn't know the context: This quote is literal fascist rhetoric to promote machismo and contempt for the weak. It might resonate the first time you hear it (most good propaganda does), but if you contemplate it for more than 10 seconds and you'll realize it's obviously untrue.
- spoiler 4y ago
  Why does it have to be interpreted as fascist rhetoric? What propaganda does it embed? Why does everything have to revolve around hatred? Also, you don't have to be macho or physically strong to be strong. That just seems like your own bias leaking into the discussion. That it might promote contempt for weakness might be true, though, and it didn't cross my mind. I don't like that it does that. At the same time I don't think weakness should be glorified either. Ideally, weak people should be helped to develop their own strong self.
  - guano___ 4y ago
    I'm not sure about fascism, but there's a lot of historical context to the quote. Bret Devereaux has a series of posts where he delves into the history of the idea behind the meme - https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... It's a thoroughly interesting debunking, and in part IIIb, he talks about how the trope was used to promote racial purity and superiority.
    - spoiler 4y ago
      Thank you for posting that! I've not read it yet. It seems like an interesting read (I love esoteric trivia like this!). I started it but realised it's much longer than I am prepared for this late at night. So, I'll try to read it over the coming days. I don't know if it improves later, but they seem to only consider physical prowess as a form of strength. I generally interpreted this as strength of mind. Also, I've taken the phrase less literally than they did. Man to me implied "human" (ie the same as man kind) because these quotes are usually designed to be succinct and memorable. They seem to think it's exclusive to human males. But I've not read it in full yet, so we'll see when I finish it
bitsnbytes 4y ago
Excellent post and spot on.

1659447091 4y ago

If we are at the "Weak men create hard times", then we are soon at the "hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men". Atleast we have that to look forward to. Seems we bring it on ourselves

snapcaster 4y ago

That quote always bothered me because I don't think it's accurate on either a personal or societal level. It's not a good model for viewing the world. It's one of those things that rings true but when you actually think about it it's hard to find it actually mapping to reality or having any predictive power

floren 4y ago
Right, I've never heard somebody quote it and declare that we're currently in the hard times. Its only purpose is to let other people know that you consider them unwise and soon they'll be sorry.
- spoiler 4y ago
  That's the social media mindset I was talking about!
RestlessMind 4y ago
What?? I actually think it maps pretty well to the reality. I have seen it at a personal level in my social circle and at a broad level of civilizations.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  I was going to post the same complaint as the parent comment; for example: "Hard times create strong men" - maybe, but starvation doesn't make you strong. Being dead from disease doesn't make you strong. Rising to adversity might make some people stronger, but it will harm others who survive but are damaged. It could be that the already-strong people rise to adversity and the weak get crushed by it, Darwinianly? Or that the weak endure through hard times as much as anyone because hard times are generally about health food or money and even 'weak' beggers can get enough of those to survive. Today's homeless are generally enduring lack of food, poor health, low money, and nobody considers them being made 'strong' by it, they're harmed by it. "strong men create good times" - warriors are strong, barbarian raiders were strong, unpleasant bosses who abuse their workforce and reign by terror are strong, those are horrible times. Is there a connection between strong people and good times? What about average people who are neither weak nor strong, working in concert? What about people who are generally considered weak, but are thinking long term planting the trees that will shade tomorrow, community building, etc? "good times create weak men" - do they? Do they necessarily? Why is this framing "good" as "bad"? Wouldn't going to the gym regularly and getting stronger be "good times" for someone? Wouldn't working the family farm hard, being physically strong and providing for your family, be good times and not making you weak? Is it luxury which makes people weak - previous point, do strong people create luxury specifically? "weak men create hard times" - do they? Plenty of strong people (dictators, for example) have created hard times for millions. Plenty of weak people have had no impact on the times at all. Isn't the history of progress littered with people who were "a weak and sickly child" who spent their lives hiding indoors, thinking about math, died young, and changed the world - were they making hard times? It's connected to the 'one generation makes family wealth by working hard, next generation preserves it but can't build it, next generation spends it'. In that, the hard times are where you have no money and have to work. The good times are where you have money and no work. The next hard times are where you lose the money and have to work again. But then, getting back into work and earning money is a homeless unemployed person's good times, life on the up. At the 'level of civilizations' it's far too vague to say the fall of Rome was caused by "weak men" or that the rise of Rome was caused by "hard times".

johnchristopher 4y ago

> The recent trend of unironically calling people "NPCs" and "bots" just reinforces these beliefs, IMO. I missed that one, though now that I read it I realize there's a lot of bot calling going-on on an FPS server I regularly visit. By the way, is this site done with calling regular people "normies" ?

spoiler 4y ago
I think calling people bots in FPS games was always a thing. It's when people have poor pathing, or make seemingly nonsensical decisions. I meant more in real life

snozolli 4y ago

I think we're entering that last cycle again, where people are inventing trivial hardships for themselves, because media teaches them that only a life with some type of adversity is worth living. I don't think that's even remotely what the quote means. You seem to be taking it as "weak men make up hardships" as opposed to "weakness leads to a broken down system and future suffering for society". For example, one might say that weakness in facing climate change will lead to hardship in the future. Another example would be that weakness in facing fascism allows it to rise and wreak havoc on society. Coincidentally, that quote is super popular among fascist-leaning types.

spoiler 4y ago
I meant both of those things. Have you looked at society recently? The former is currently acting as a catalyst for the latter. And speaking of fascism and intolerance for others in general: it's unfortunately getting worse. I largely blame social media and the busybodies that waste away on them... Says I, as I moonlight as a keyboard warrior on a forum; the irony doesn't escape me
- lanstin 4y ago
  You may wish to read some books by people who have lived under fascist regimes. It is a bit more intense than being criticized by busy bodies.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    We aren't talking about regimes, though… Why move the discussion?
    - lanstin 4y ago
      If it isn’t trying to take over the government and replace a decadent democracy with the Old True Values it isn’t really fascism.
      - 4y ago

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago

For anyone who doesn't know the context: This quote is literal fascist rhetoric to promote machismo and contempt for the weak. It might resonate the first time you hear it (most good propaganda does), but if you contemplate it for more than 10 seconds and you'll realize it's obviously untrue.

spoiler 4y ago
Why does it have to be interpreted as fascist rhetoric? What propaganda does it embed? Why does everything have to revolve around hatred? Also, you don't have to be macho or physically strong to be strong. That just seems like your own bias leaking into the discussion. That it might promote contempt for weakness might be true, though, and it didn't cross my mind. I don't like that it does that. At the same time I don't think weakness should be glorified either. Ideally, weak people should be helped to develop their own strong self.
- guano___ 4y ago
  I'm not sure about fascism, but there's a lot of historical context to the quote. Bret Devereaux has a series of posts where he delves into the history of the idea behind the meme - https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... It's a thoroughly interesting debunking, and in part IIIb, he talks about how the trope was used to promote racial purity and superiority.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    Thank you for posting that! I've not read it yet. It seems like an interesting read (I love esoteric trivia like this!). I started it but realised it's much longer than I am prepared for this late at night. So, I'll try to read it over the coming days. I don't know if it improves later, but they seem to only consider physical prowess as a form of strength. I generally interpreted this as strength of mind. Also, I've taken the phrase less literally than they did. Man to me implied "human" (ie the same as man kind) because these quotes are usually designed to be succinct and memorable. They seem to think it's exclusive to human males. But I've not read it in full yet, so we'll see when I finish it

bitsnbytes 4y ago

Excellent post and spot on.