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Poland ready to send tanks without Germany’s consent, PM says

22 points by type0 4y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Good! Keep it coming! Ukraine should get whatever their leadership and commanders think they need to reclaim their country and repel invaders.
dekhn 4y ago
Good. Germany is just trying to play "try to keep russia not angry at us"
- Arnt 4y ago
  Expat in Germany here... that isn't my impression. Rather, many Germans are determined to avoid any kind of military might, display, leadership, and that sort of thing. So they became Ukraine's third biggest donor while seeming totally reluctant, never displaying any kind of leadership, see?
  - dekhn 4y ago
    What is the source of avoiding might and leadership? Modesty? Fear of being mistaken for 1938?
    - Arnt 4y ago
      No, not being mistaken for 1938. More making any mistake similar to those in 1938 or 1916. Read about Germany's behaviour towards Belgians during WW1, for example. It's not well known in the greater world, but all of the Germans learned about that in school, and learned that pretty much everything they did involving wars was terrible, whether in 1900 in China, 1906 in Namibia, 1916 in Belgium or during the Nazi time. IMO it's quite appropriate that they hesitate a little too long now.
timeon 4y ago
But why they did not sent the request? Articles like this are just manufacturing the rage.
yucky 4y ago
For all of the armchair cheerleaders, I hope people ask themselves what Russia's response will be. If they're pot committed (and it certainly seems like they are), then an escalation will inevitably be met with an even larger counter-escalation. Calling that "good" is perhaps shortsighted.
- mopsi 4y ago
  > then an escalation will inevitably be met with an even larger counter-escalation. What was the reaction to Patriot? Russians just brushed it off as obsolete and decades behind their own tech, an obvious lie, just like they have backtracked on many other red lines (attacks on occupation forces of Crimea comes to mind). Bullies back down when their bullshit gets called out.
  - yucky 4y ago
    > Bullies back down when their bullshit gets called out. Does Russia appear to be backing down?
    - mopsi 4y ago
      From the escalation they threatened with - yes, absolutely. Medvedev threatened with nuclear war if targets in Crimea would be hit. HQ of Black Sea Fleet got hit, along with spectacular raids on airfields, but only response were pathetic revenge attacks on Ukranian civilians.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  It's weird to tell Ukraine they should be wary of some hypothetical escalation from Russia.
  - yucky 4y ago
    That's not who should be concerned, they're already at war and rightfully concerned. Or rather, their easternmost breakaway provinces are in a war and have been for 8 years. But when bordering states start joining in, the risk of the war getting much larger and involving more nations grows.
Tozen 4y ago
This strange behavior by Germany about tanks, and the Western media theatrics, makes no logical sense. Firstly, neighboring NATO countries have been giving Ukraine T-72 type tanks from almost the beginning. NATO countries have already been supplying tanks to Ukraine. Several NATO countries have already and have agreed to supply even more armored, self propelled howitzers, rocket launchers, and infantry fighting vehicles too. In the huge cluster of heavy arms already being supplied, adding Western tanks into the mix should make no difference. It's like when they had to switch from the 152 mm Soviet caliber to the NATO 155 mm caliber howitzers, in order to supply Ukraine. It's just a matter of logistics and supply. At some point, Ukraine has to switch from old T-72 tanks to Western tanks, because that is what NATO presently has and what they can get. I thought the "real line" was modern Western aircraft, like F-16s or A-10s (which would be eyebrow raising). Though somehow, the possible use of Soviet era MiGs from Ukraine and ex-Soviet countries to strike across the border are perceived as non-threatening. If Germany wants to keep "its hands clean", though I don't see how based on all the other weapons and help supplied, they simply can give permission for other countries with their tanks to send them to Ukraine. Then Germany can say they didn't send their tanks, but rather those other countries with German-made tanks did so. If that even makes a difference or any sense. Anyway, seems like Poland's patience with this weird political dancing is about to end and they will send their German Leopard tanks to Ukraine. Poland appears to have nothing to lose, because they have bought American and Korean tanks as replacements.

22 points by type0 4y ago

Good! Keep it coming! Ukraine should get whatever their leadership and commanders think they need to reclaim their country and repel invaders.

dekhn 4y ago

Good. Germany is just trying to play "try to keep russia not angry at us"

Arnt 4y ago
Expat in Germany here... that isn't my impression. Rather, many Germans are determined to avoid any kind of military might, display, leadership, and that sort of thing. So they became Ukraine's third biggest donor while seeming totally reluctant, never displaying any kind of leadership, see?
- dekhn 4y ago
  What is the source of avoiding might and leadership? Modesty? Fear of being mistaken for 1938?
  - Arnt 4y ago
    No, not being mistaken for 1938. More making any mistake similar to those in 1938 or 1916. Read about Germany's behaviour towards Belgians during WW1, for example. It's not well known in the greater world, but all of the Germans learned about that in school, and learned that pretty much everything they did involving wars was terrible, whether in 1900 in China, 1906 in Namibia, 1916 in Belgium or during the Nazi time. IMO it's quite appropriate that they hesitate a little too long now.

timeon 4y ago

But why they did not sent the request? Articles like this are just manufacturing the rage.

yucky 4y ago

For all of the armchair cheerleaders, I hope people ask themselves what Russia's response will be. If they're pot committed (and it certainly seems like they are), then an escalation will inevitably be met with an even larger counter-escalation. Calling that "good" is perhaps shortsighted.

mopsi 4y ago
> then an escalation will inevitably be met with an even larger counter-escalation. What was the reaction to Patriot? Russians just brushed it off as obsolete and decades behind their own tech, an obvious lie, just like they have backtracked on many other red lines (attacks on occupation forces of Crimea comes to mind). Bullies back down when their bullshit gets called out.
- yucky 4y ago
  > Bullies back down when their bullshit gets called out. Does Russia appear to be backing down?
  - mopsi 4y ago
    From the escalation they threatened with - yes, absolutely. Medvedev threatened with nuclear war if targets in Crimea would be hit. HQ of Black Sea Fleet got hit, along with spectacular raids on airfields, but only response were pathetic revenge attacks on Ukranian civilians.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
It's weird to tell Ukraine they should be wary of some hypothetical escalation from Russia.
- yucky 4y ago
  That's not who should be concerned, they're already at war and rightfully concerned. Or rather, their easternmost breakaway provinces are in a war and have been for 8 years. But when bordering states start joining in, the risk of the war getting much larger and involving more nations grows.

Tozen 4y ago

This strange behavior by Germany about tanks, and the Western media theatrics, makes no logical sense. Firstly, neighboring NATO countries have been giving Ukraine T-72 type tanks from almost the beginning. NATO countries have already been supplying tanks to Ukraine. Several NATO countries have already and have agreed to supply even more armored, self propelled howitzers, rocket launchers, and infantry fighting vehicles too. In the huge cluster of heavy arms already being supplied, adding Western tanks into the mix should make no difference. It's like when they had to switch from the 152 mm Soviet caliber to the NATO 155 mm caliber howitzers, in order to supply Ukraine. It's just a matter of logistics and supply. At some point, Ukraine has to switch from old T-72 tanks to Western tanks, because that is what NATO presently has and what they can get. I thought the "real line" was modern Western aircraft, like F-16s or A-10s (which would be eyebrow raising). Though somehow, the possible use of Soviet era MiGs from Ukraine and ex-Soviet countries to strike across the border are perceived as non-threatening. If Germany wants to keep "its hands clean", though I don't see how based on all the other weapons and help supplied, they simply can give permission for other countries with their tanks to send them to Ukraine. Then Germany can say they didn't send their tanks, but rather those other countries with German-made tanks did so. If that even makes a difference or any sense. Anyway, seems like Poland's patience with this weird political dancing is about to end and they will send their German Leopard tanks to Ukraine. Poland appears to have nothing to lose, because they have bought American and Korean tanks as replacements.