36 ms·

The Church of Market Share

23 points by pooriaazimi 15y ago

CoffeeDregs 15y ago
1993 called. They want your MS versus Mac arguments back. [seriously.]
- CoffeeDregs 15y ago
  I was actually afraid that I'd get downvoted for this comment, but I was perfectly serious. A lot of the arguments I hear about Android, iOS, etc rhyme with arguments from 20 years ago: I loved using Macs and I used OS/2, and I didn't listen to the market, preferring instead to argue that the technologies I used were superior. I certainly was correct, but both technologies nearly died in the face of Microsoft's "Church of Marketshare". "Strategy by analogy" is dangerous, but, in this case, I'd put the burden of proof on those who argue marketshare is not supremely important.
  - MaysonL 15y ago
    Of course, at the moment MS is losing the Mac vs. Windows battle: OSX and its bastard stepchild iOS are grabbing market share, and amazingly enough, market share in the enterprise market.
    - CoffeeDregs 15y ago
      Agreed. But that's 15+ years, N Microsoft missteps and a radical MacOS recode later... I wouldn't bet on that occurring twice (save for the fact that Apple seems bent on trying to repeat it).
    - chii 15y ago
      i do not believe MS is losing market share to OSX in the enterprise. I _might_ believe that MS is losing some marketshare in consumer computing to OSX (especially uni students).
      - MaysonL 15y ago
        See, for example: http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/10/enter-prise/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/10/enter-prise/
fleitz 15y ago
I wouldn't code for Android simply because I don't like Java. It's just shameful that C,C++,and Obj-C will have closures before Java. Java is a ghetto and I don't want any part of it.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  I'm a Lisper and am usually firmly in the Java-hater camp, but I downvoted you because of your last line, and because of your claim that C will have closures before Java. That's simply too much of a stretch. Java already has inner classes (and anonymous inner classes) which are much closer to closures than anything in C. They are syntactically clunky and using them like first-class functions is only kind of idiomatic so not many libraries leverage them for their full effect (although see the Google Guava libraries for examples of interesting usage). But if you squint they are pretty close to closures. I find the whole closures-in-Java debate very tired because of this. Also, writing Java for Android isn't that bad, although I'm not qualified to compare it to Objective-C for iOS. I would like to become qualified though, because I love my Mac and I love my iPod Touch. My point being that I'm a bit biased but not a fanboy.
  - fleitz 15y ago
    C already does have closures on the compilers I use.
    - spacemanaki 15y ago
      It occurred to me that Apple might have added extensions to C and C++ along with whatever is in Objective-C, and went off to look it up. So today I learned something new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocks_(C_language_extension)#Examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocks_(C_language_extension)#E... But it's almost as ugly as the equivalent Java, and I'm pretty sure the equivalent existed in Java 1.0^, while this apparently is new as of OS X 10.6 and iOS 4. I still think it's disingenuous to say that "C will have closures before Java" when this is a nonstandard extension. If you think it's easier to work with, that's totally fine. But then we're just arguing over syntactic noise and frankly I don't like either syntaxes. And I still don't think it's constructive to talk about a programming language as a ghetto. ^ Nope, I think I was wrong. Nested and inner classes were added in 1.1
Kylekramer 15y ago
So Gruber's conceit is iOS has "wider and deeper support from developers" despite less market share, so market share isn't everything to developers. But I don't really see iOS having wider and deeper support, at least anymore. Any major company has an Android app to go with their iOS app. I can't think of any smash iOS hit games that hasn't been ported to Android. Rockstar, who at one point released GTA: Chinatown Wars for iOS only, just released GTA III across iOS/Android same day. This is entirely due to market share. The only place where "wider and deeper support" still holds true are niches that tickle iOS users' sweet spot. Things like Instagram, Instapaper, Flipboard, music creation apps, etc. And these also hit Gruber's sweet spot, so of course he senses the iOS environment is better. But there are also niches popping up for Android. Stuff like Tasker, Minecraft, AirDroid, etc. So, yes, I think market share is everything and people can be reduced to numbers. iOS just happens to have a larger number of design focused people (like Gruber) who like a certain subset of apps. We've gone from an "iOS only" to "iOS first, then Android" to now, where I think things are nearing 50/50 when it comes to what platform you release to first, if not at the same time. And if the numbers tip too much in Android's direction, I wouldn't be surprised if the fable repeat of Windows vs. Apple happens. Apple for the designers, Android for the rest of the world.

23 points by pooriaazimi 15y ago

CoffeeDregs 15y ago

1993 called. They want your MS versus Mac arguments back. [seriously.]

CoffeeDregs 15y ago
I was actually afraid that I'd get downvoted for this comment, but I was perfectly serious. A lot of the arguments I hear about Android, iOS, etc rhyme with arguments from 20 years ago: I loved using Macs and I used OS/2, and I didn't listen to the market, preferring instead to argue that the technologies I used were superior. I certainly was correct, but both technologies nearly died in the face of Microsoft's "Church of Marketshare". "Strategy by analogy" is dangerous, but, in this case, I'd put the burden of proof on those who argue marketshare is not supremely important.
- MaysonL 15y ago
  Of course, at the moment MS is losing the Mac vs. Windows battle: OSX and its bastard stepchild iOS are grabbing market share, and amazingly enough, market share in the enterprise market.
  - CoffeeDregs 15y ago
    Agreed. But that's 15+ years, N Microsoft missteps and a radical MacOS recode later... I wouldn't bet on that occurring twice (save for the fact that Apple seems bent on trying to repeat it).
  - chii 15y ago
    i do not believe MS is losing market share to OSX in the enterprise. I _might_ believe that MS is losing some marketshare in consumer computing to OSX (especially uni students).
    - MaysonL 15y ago
      See, for example: http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/10/enter-prise/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/10/enter-prise/

fleitz 15y ago

I wouldn't code for Android simply because I don't like Java. It's just shameful that C,C++,and Obj-C will have closures before Java. Java is a ghetto and I don't want any part of it.

spacemanaki 15y ago
I'm a Lisper and am usually firmly in the Java-hater camp, but I downvoted you because of your last line, and because of your claim that C will have closures before Java. That's simply too much of a stretch. Java already has inner classes (and anonymous inner classes) which are much closer to closures than anything in C. They are syntactically clunky and using them like first-class functions is only kind of idiomatic so not many libraries leverage them for their full effect (although see the Google Guava libraries for examples of interesting usage). But if you squint they are pretty close to closures. I find the whole closures-in-Java debate very tired because of this. Also, writing Java for Android isn't that bad, although I'm not qualified to compare it to Objective-C for iOS. I would like to become qualified though, because I love my Mac and I love my iPod Touch. My point being that I'm a bit biased but not a fanboy.
- fleitz 15y ago
  C already does have closures on the compilers I use.
  - spacemanaki 15y ago
    It occurred to me that Apple might have added extensions to C and C++ along with whatever is in Objective-C, and went off to look it up. So today I learned something new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocks_(C_language_extension)#Examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocks_(C_language_extension)#E... But it's almost as ugly as the equivalent Java, and I'm pretty sure the equivalent existed in Java 1.0^, while this apparently is new as of OS X 10.6 and iOS 4. I still think it's disingenuous to say that "C will have closures before Java" when this is a nonstandard extension. If you think it's easier to work with, that's totally fine. But then we're just arguing over syntactic noise and frankly I don't like either syntaxes. And I still don't think it's constructive to talk about a programming language as a ghetto. ^ Nope, I think I was wrong. Nested and inner classes were added in 1.1

Kylekramer 15y ago

So Gruber's conceit is iOS has "wider and deeper support from developers" despite less market share, so market share isn't everything to developers. But I don't really see iOS having wider and deeper support, at least anymore. Any major company has an Android app to go with their iOS app. I can't think of any smash iOS hit games that hasn't been ported to Android. Rockstar, who at one point released GTA: Chinatown Wars for iOS only, just released GTA III across iOS/Android same day. This is entirely due to market share. The only place where "wider and deeper support" still holds true are niches that tickle iOS users' sweet spot. Things like Instagram, Instapaper, Flipboard, music creation apps, etc. And these also hit Gruber's sweet spot, so of course he senses the iOS environment is better. But there are also niches popping up for Android. Stuff like Tasker, Minecraft, AirDroid, etc. So, yes, I think market share is everything and people can be reduced to numbers. iOS just happens to have a larger number of design focused people (like Gruber) who like a certain subset of apps. We've gone from an "iOS only" to "iOS first, then Android" to now, where I think things are nearing 50/50 when it comes to what platform you release to first, if not at the same time. And if the numbers tip too much in Android's direction, I wouldn't be surprised if the fable repeat of Windows vs. Apple happens. Apple for the designers, Android for the rest of the world.