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This may have a bigger impact than they think. Is Amazon good for the world? For some, the answer is no but still buy at Amazon as any sins are compensated by t

This may have a bigger impact than they think. Is Amazon good for the world? For some, the answer is no but still buy at Amazon as any sins are compensated by the the small donation to a NGO of choice.

rcme 4y ago
I don't think the sins of Amazon are any worse than most other major U.S. retailers.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  They're absolutely not - but the people that attack Amazon don't care about that. Amazon to many represents Capitalism, and so acts as a catchall for criticisms of Capitalism. Ironically, small family shops use WAY more child labor, unpaid labor etc as a percentage than Amazon. They also produce more plastic per item, take only cash to evade taxes, etc.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Oh no small family shops are evading taxes…good thing corporations don’t that…
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Tax evasion has a different meaning than how you are using it.
  - Retric 4y ago
    It’s hard to imagine the average small business successfully evading taxes as well as Amazon. In 2019 Amazon paid zero taxes receiving a net $129 million refund from the federal government, in 2018 they received a $137 million refund after paying 0$ on a net income of 11.2 billion dollars. In 2020 they paid a net tax of $162 million on $13.9 billion of pre-tax income a net tax rate of 1.2%.
    - DimitriPetrova 4y ago
      I think they still have loss carryforwards, they didn't make money for several years initially
      - Retric 4y ago
        They where profitable and paid net taxes in 2016 and where hugely profitable yet paid zero taxes in 2017, 2018, and 2019. So I don’t see how this could be loss carry forward offsetting a several billion dollar annual tax bill for 4+ years.
    - Domenic_S 4y ago
      net tax rate is meaningless in this context. Besides the fact that they're doing what each one of us do (take deductions following the law), it completely ignores all the other tax they pay - like payroll tax on a massive employee base and so forth. To imply Amazon (or any corp) are floating by with a total tax load of ~1% is either profoundly disingenuous or profoundly naïve.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Saying companies pay payroll tax is like saying they pay sales tax when you buy something from them. It’s sort of true and sort of false.
        BeetleB 4y ago
        It sounds like you don't understand the basics of payroll tax. The SS tax that gets deducted from your paycheck is only half the amount. Employers are required to pay the other half. If you're self-employed, you pay both halves, and that is one of the penalties of being treated as self employed.
        gowld 4y ago
        That's just an accounting/presentation gimmick. Mathematically, it would be the same if the deduction was 0% or 100% shown in paycheck, instead of 50%.
  - llanowarelves 4y ago
    Calling a family business "child labor" or unpaid labor is like saying a founder is doing unpaid labor, or if he is under 16-18, child labor. Family, ownership, and business are concepts that overlap and mean much different things than a $1 trillion company with countless nameless faceless employees around the globe, that you can buy shares of.
- Retric 4y ago
  There warehouses are significantly worse than average in terms of injuries per hour. They also frequently sell fraudulent items directly harming consumers. I can’t think of a metric where they aren’t worse than the average retailer.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    >There warehouses are significantly worse than average in terms of injuries per hour. Per man hour? Amazon is rich and super high volume relatively speaking. I got the impression their warehouses were pretty damn good compared to other warehouses handling consumer goods because the cost of hiccups is so high and they have a huge target on their back.
    - Retric 4y ago
      They don’t seem to be very concerned about injuries. One example that comes to mind is storing 40 lb bags of dog food such that people had to duck and lean over and drag them under a low shelf, that’s practically designed to cause back injuries and in fact caused multiple in a single warehouse.
      - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        Yeah but are they actually worse than the competition though? The whole industry is rife with that kind of crap (not like you're expect otherwise for a razor thin margin industry). I once worked somewhere they'd crib between the ground level pallets and first level racking so they could overload the racking (but my immediate manager was good and they put me on a forklift so I didn't care). If anything the dehumanizing algorithmic tracking and optimization crap they do annoys me far more than the safety stuff.
        Retric 4y ago
        Actual comparison of injury rates show yes they are much worse than the industry average. Amazon’s extreme turnover rate is also significant. Someone that’s been doing a job for longer has both the skill and physical capacity to avid injury doing the same tasks as a new employee. This compounds over long shifts as people get tired, so limiting new employees to 8 vs 12 hour shifts would make a real difference among other options.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  > I don't think the sins of Amazon are any worse than most other major U.S. retailers. monopolies are bad, for consumers and for competitors. Even if you build your monopoly "fairly" by inventing a better mousetrap, putting the competition out of business is a reward that that is unfair and does not belong to the owner of the mousetrap. For example, Amazon could be split into 3 smaller Amazon mousetraps that compete with each other. Is that unfair to Jeff Bezos? No, he would own the same percentage of mousetrapping companies as he did before. What he would not own is a monopoly. The sins of Amazon the monopolistic competitor are worse.
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    I have no trouble finding stuff to buy from companies other than Amazon. For retail, it is not even close to a monopoly.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      in what way does breaking Amazon into three companies reduce your choice of product? and monopoly in common usage also refers to monopsony, the choice of vendors for different marketplaces in which to sell their goods.
  - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
    >Even if you build your monopoly "fairly" by inventing a better mousetrap, putting the competition out of business is a reward that that is unfair and does not belong to the owner of the mousetrap. Antitrust laws exist to protect consumers, and if you're forcing consumers to buy inferior mousetraps, you're not helping.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      we don't actually have anti-trust laws, we have laws against the abuse of monopoly power, a standard that can be difficult to prove and well after the commission of the injustices. I think there is sufficient theoretical and practical experience to have anti-trust laws simply be anti-market concentration. I'm arguing for it because it's an example of "third way" regulation, regulation that should be embraced by left wing socialist and right wing capitalists.
- themagician 4y ago
  Most people either forget or were too young to remember the time when Walmart was king. Despite their many, many faults Amazon was (and still is) considerably better for almost everyone than Walmart was in the 90's and early 00's. Walmart would destroy communities, bankrupt manufactures, and paid their employees so little on average that many of them still needed food stamps. The damage that Walmart did in the period 1995 to like 2010 really was incredible. I really do think the expiration is coming up on Amazon too, with the same 15 year run. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the bad guy.
  - andirk 4y ago
    People are completely addicted to Amazon. Some of my friends and neighbors get things from them literally daily without thinking twice about where to shop. I do not get the allure of cheap Chinese product on my doorstep in 2 days nor do I understand getting overly charged fine dining on my doorstep upside down and cold. But everyone else is addicted to those services. Sadly, I don't see Amazon losing any steam, but I sure hope it does.
    - ss108 4y ago
      It's not any more "cheap Chinese product" than anywhere else. CoolerMaster keyboard is made where it's made whether one buys from Amazon or Best Buy. Personally I get stuff from Amazon almost daily because I don't want to go to, e.g., Walgreens to buy toothpaste and dishwasher detergent. For a large number of items, there is no benefit to inspecting the item prior to purchase. Going to store for such items would be a waste of time. Moreover, I can buy the thing immediately ftom my phone. No need to set up going to buy x as some chore in the future.
      - andirk 4y ago
        Brand names are probably identical regardless of middleman. Seems a difference between not wanting to go to the store. So much funny shit happens at Walgreens. Tip your delivery person sometimes.

rcme 4y ago

I don't think the sins of Amazon are any worse than most other major U.S. retailers.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
They're absolutely not - but the people that attack Amazon don't care about that. Amazon to many represents Capitalism, and so acts as a catchall for criticisms of Capitalism. Ironically, small family shops use WAY more child labor, unpaid labor etc as a percentage than Amazon. They also produce more plastic per item, take only cash to evade taxes, etc.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Oh no small family shops are evading taxes…good thing corporations don’t that…
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Tax evasion has a different meaning than how you are using it.
- Retric 4y ago
  It’s hard to imagine the average small business successfully evading taxes as well as Amazon. In 2019 Amazon paid zero taxes receiving a net $129 million refund from the federal government, in 2018 they received a $137 million refund after paying 0$ on a net income of 11.2 billion dollars. In 2020 they paid a net tax of $162 million on $13.9 billion of pre-tax income a net tax rate of 1.2%.
  - DimitriPetrova 4y ago
    I think they still have loss carryforwards, they didn't make money for several years initially
    - Retric 4y ago
      They where profitable and paid net taxes in 2016 and where hugely profitable yet paid zero taxes in 2017, 2018, and 2019. So I don’t see how this could be loss carry forward offsetting a several billion dollar annual tax bill for 4+ years.
  - Domenic_S 4y ago
    net tax rate is meaningless in this context. Besides the fact that they're doing what each one of us do (take deductions following the law), it completely ignores all the other tax they pay - like payroll tax on a massive employee base and so forth. To imply Amazon (or any corp) are floating by with a total tax load of ~1% is either profoundly disingenuous or profoundly naïve.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Saying companies pay payroll tax is like saying they pay sales tax when you buy something from them. It’s sort of true and sort of false.
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        It sounds like you don't understand the basics of payroll tax. The SS tax that gets deducted from your paycheck is only half the amount. Employers are required to pay the other half. If you're self-employed, you pay both halves, and that is one of the penalties of being treated as self employed.
        gowld 4y ago
        That's just an accounting/presentation gimmick. Mathematically, it would be the same if the deduction was 0% or 100% shown in paycheck, instead of 50%.
- llanowarelves 4y ago
  Calling a family business "child labor" or unpaid labor is like saying a founder is doing unpaid labor, or if he is under 16-18, child labor. Family, ownership, and business are concepts that overlap and mean much different things than a $1 trillion company with countless nameless faceless employees around the globe, that you can buy shares of.
Retric 4y ago
There warehouses are significantly worse than average in terms of injuries per hour. They also frequently sell fraudulent items directly harming consumers. I can’t think of a metric where they aren’t worse than the average retailer.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >There warehouses are significantly worse than average in terms of injuries per hour. Per man hour? Amazon is rich and super high volume relatively speaking. I got the impression their warehouses were pretty damn good compared to other warehouses handling consumer goods because the cost of hiccups is so high and they have a huge target on their back.
  - Retric 4y ago
    They don’t seem to be very concerned about injuries. One example that comes to mind is storing 40 lb bags of dog food such that people had to duck and lean over and drag them under a low shelf, that’s practically designed to cause back injuries and in fact caused multiple in a single warehouse.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      Yeah but are they actually worse than the competition though? The whole industry is rife with that kind of crap (not like you're expect otherwise for a razor thin margin industry). I once worked somewhere they'd crib between the ground level pallets and first level racking so they could overload the racking (but my immediate manager was good and they put me on a forklift so I didn't care). If anything the dehumanizing algorithmic tracking and optimization crap they do annoys me far more than the safety stuff.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Actual comparison of injury rates show yes they are much worse than the industry average. Amazon’s extreme turnover rate is also significant. Someone that’s been doing a job for longer has both the skill and physical capacity to avid injury doing the same tasks as a new employee. This compounds over long shifts as people get tired, so limiting new employees to 8 vs 12 hour shifts would make a real difference among other options.
fsckboy 4y ago
> I don't think the sins of Amazon are any worse than most other major U.S. retailers. monopolies are bad, for consumers and for competitors. Even if you build your monopoly "fairly" by inventing a better mousetrap, putting the competition out of business is a reward that that is unfair and does not belong to the owner of the mousetrap. For example, Amazon could be split into 3 smaller Amazon mousetraps that compete with each other. Is that unfair to Jeff Bezos? No, he would own the same percentage of mousetrapping companies as he did before. What he would not own is a monopoly. The sins of Amazon the monopolistic competitor are worse.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  I have no trouble finding stuff to buy from companies other than Amazon. For retail, it is not even close to a monopoly.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    in what way does breaking Amazon into three companies reduce your choice of product? and monopoly in common usage also refers to monopsony, the choice of vendors for different marketplaces in which to sell their goods.
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  >Even if you build your monopoly "fairly" by inventing a better mousetrap, putting the competition out of business is a reward that that is unfair and does not belong to the owner of the mousetrap. Antitrust laws exist to protect consumers, and if you're forcing consumers to buy inferior mousetraps, you're not helping.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    we don't actually have anti-trust laws, we have laws against the abuse of monopoly power, a standard that can be difficult to prove and well after the commission of the injustices. I think there is sufficient theoretical and practical experience to have anti-trust laws simply be anti-market concentration. I'm arguing for it because it's an example of "third way" regulation, regulation that should be embraced by left wing socialist and right wing capitalists.
themagician 4y ago
Most people either forget or were too young to remember the time when Walmart was king. Despite their many, many faults Amazon was (and still is) considerably better for almost everyone than Walmart was in the 90's and early 00's. Walmart would destroy communities, bankrupt manufactures, and paid their employees so little on average that many of them still needed food stamps. The damage that Walmart did in the period 1995 to like 2010 really was incredible. I really do think the expiration is coming up on Amazon too, with the same 15 year run. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the bad guy.
- andirk 4y ago
  People are completely addicted to Amazon. Some of my friends and neighbors get things from them literally daily without thinking twice about where to shop. I do not get the allure of cheap Chinese product on my doorstep in 2 days nor do I understand getting overly charged fine dining on my doorstep upside down and cold. But everyone else is addicted to those services. Sadly, I don't see Amazon losing any steam, but I sure hope it does.
  - ss108 4y ago
    It's not any more "cheap Chinese product" than anywhere else. CoolerMaster keyboard is made where it's made whether one buys from Amazon or Best Buy. Personally I get stuff from Amazon almost daily because I don't want to go to, e.g., Walgreens to buy toothpaste and dishwasher detergent. For a large number of items, there is no benefit to inspecting the item prior to purchase. Going to store for such items would be a waste of time. Moreover, I can buy the thing immediately ftom my phone. No need to set up going to buy x as some chore in the future.
    - andirk 4y ago
      Brand names are probably identical regardless of middleman. Seems a difference between not wanting to go to the store. So much funny shit happens at Walgreens. Tip your delivery person sometimes.