5 ms·

Some vegans believe that it is unethical to kill animals, and that they should have the same rights as us. Of course, they're wrong because animals aren't able

Some vegans believe that it is unethical to kill animals, and that they should have the same rights as us. Of course, they're wrong because animals aren't able to think. Others believe that meat is bad for the environment, however I don't know if that is correct as I haven't done any research on the topic.

evilduck 4y ago
> Of course, they're wrong because animals aren't able to think. and you know this by what mechanism?
issa 4y ago
I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that "animals aren't able to think" before. Could you please explain what you could possibly mean by that?
mythrwy 4y ago
If not being able to think was justification for eating something, well, there's a coworker I have, but he'd probably taste bad.
Camus134 4y ago
[dead]
slothtrop 4y ago
Animals are mostly sentient. The degree of "consciousness" is debated. Sardines don't even have a cerebral cortex, which to me puts them on the level of insects - vegans might object, but they won't object to squashing flies and using insecticides. As for the environment, depends on the animal - this is usually about methane (from cows) and land encroachment (also, because of soybean crops or whatever).
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  Vegans absolutely generally object to killing flies… Many won’t even steal the work of bees
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    If they really did, you'd expect to see calls to mitigate insect deaths as part of their usual dialog. They're apathetic. If you ask them, ostensibly they might object to killing insects to stay consistent, but they won't bring it up. THat's pretty much in line with naturally expected behavior, because intuitively we don't expect much from insects.
    - issa 4y ago
      I don't feel comfortable speaking for ALL vegans, but in my house, we gently move spiders outside. We would also be totally fine with killing a mosquito. My general theory is that it is fine to hurt an animal if it attacks you first, but it's cruel to do it whenever it can be avoided. Just like all other forms of violence.
      - DangitBobby 4y ago
        I also avoid killing insects and spiders, especially if they aren't dangerous and aren't bothering anyone. We don't use pest control to "keep bugs away" either.
- someNameIG 4y ago
  As a vegan with things like sardines and insects is that, at least currently, we can't gauge if they can suffer or not, so err on the side of caution and don't eat them.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    That's as meaningful as saying you can't gauge whether plants suffer or not - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_response_in_plants#MAMPs/_DAMPS_&_Signaling_Pathways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_response_in_plants#MAMPs... I think we can get a pretty good ballpark estimate, by virtue that suffering categorically requires a certain level consciousness.
    - someNameIG 4y ago
      Plants have no brains or analog at all, plats reacting and signalling is no different than a bacteria moving along a concentration gradient. The animals I mentioned do, even if very simple ones. If you really want to question this bivalves are a better example, as I've seen many debates in vegan circles about them.
      - slothtrop 4y ago
        > plats reacting and signalling is no different than a bacteria moving along a concentration gradient. No different than pain receptors, you mean. > Plants have no brains or analog at all No brain, yes. But what of "no analog" if the qualifier for suffering is deliberately clouded in ambiguity? The only reason the brain matters qua suffering is owing to the capacity for consciousness. Plants have no brain, well, sardines have no cerebral cortex. If you're going to trivialize the cerebral cortex based on whim/feeling, you can do the same for the whole brain. By extension it makes as much sense to attribute the possibility of consciousness to insects as it does to plants, because you're throwing the particulars of the brain out the window. Some "magical unknown thing 'X'" is giving them consciousness - but there's no reason "magical unknown thing 'X'" has to be specific to a brain.
        4y ago

evilduck 4y ago

> Of course, they're wrong because animals aren't able to think. and you know this by what mechanism?

issa 4y ago

I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that "animals aren't able to think" before. Could you please explain what you could possibly mean by that?

mythrwy 4y ago

If not being able to think was justification for eating something, well, there's a coworker I have, but he'd probably taste bad.

Camus134 4y ago

[dead]

slothtrop 4y ago

Animals are mostly sentient. The degree of "consciousness" is debated. Sardines don't even have a cerebral cortex, which to me puts them on the level of insects - vegans might object, but they won't object to squashing flies and using insecticides. As for the environment, depends on the animal - this is usually about methane (from cows) and land encroachment (also, because of soybean crops or whatever).

reducesuffering 4y ago
Vegans absolutely generally object to killing flies… Many won’t even steal the work of bees
- slothtrop 4y ago
  If they really did, you'd expect to see calls to mitigate insect deaths as part of their usual dialog. They're apathetic. If you ask them, ostensibly they might object to killing insects to stay consistent, but they won't bring it up. THat's pretty much in line with naturally expected behavior, because intuitively we don't expect much from insects.
  - issa 4y ago
    I don't feel comfortable speaking for ALL vegans, but in my house, we gently move spiders outside. We would also be totally fine with killing a mosquito. My general theory is that it is fine to hurt an animal if it attacks you first, but it's cruel to do it whenever it can be avoided. Just like all other forms of violence.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I also avoid killing insects and spiders, especially if they aren't dangerous and aren't bothering anyone. We don't use pest control to "keep bugs away" either.
someNameIG 4y ago
As a vegan with things like sardines and insects is that, at least currently, we can't gauge if they can suffer or not, so err on the side of caution and don't eat them.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  That's as meaningful as saying you can't gauge whether plants suffer or not - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_response_in_plants#MAMPs/_DAMPS_&_Signaling_Pathways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_response_in_plants#MAMPs... I think we can get a pretty good ballpark estimate, by virtue that suffering categorically requires a certain level consciousness.
  - someNameIG 4y ago
    Plants have no brains or analog at all, plats reacting and signalling is no different than a bacteria moving along a concentration gradient. The animals I mentioned do, even if very simple ones. If you really want to question this bivalves are a better example, as I've seen many debates in vegan circles about them.
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      > plats reacting and signalling is no different than a bacteria moving along a concentration gradient. No different than pain receptors, you mean. > Plants have no brains or analog at all No brain, yes. But what of "no analog" if the qualifier for suffering is deliberately clouded in ambiguity? The only reason the brain matters qua suffering is owing to the capacity for consciousness. Plants have no brain, well, sardines have no cerebral cortex. If you're going to trivialize the cerebral cortex based on whim/feeling, you can do the same for the whole brain. By extension it makes as much sense to attribute the possibility of consciousness to insects as it does to plants, because you're throwing the particulars of the brain out the window. Some "magical unknown thing 'X'" is giving them consciousness - but there's no reason "magical unknown thing 'X'" has to be specific to a brain.
      - 4y ago