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There are two conflicting schools of thought that I suspect will never reconcile. the people who think the button should show what state it is in. and the peo

by somat 4y ago

There are two conflicting schools of thought that I suspect will never reconcile. the people who think the button should show what state it is in. and the people who think the button should show what state it will change to when activated.

ilyt 4y ago
It's very easy to reconcile. If you have to have inverse logic in UI (which is wrong, but designers gonna design despise logic or usability), you can just have "Enable"/"Disable" but use other hint showing the current state, say paint the disabled ones red and enabled ones green . Non-default state should also be indicated
mensetmanusman 4y ago
As a user who switches between apps and there isn’t consensus on this… it’s confusing as hell.
naasking 4y ago
First, checkboxes and toggles are not buttons, so that's a slightly deceptive way to describe it. If you use "checkbox" instead, it's immediately clear who's right: > and the people who think the [checkbox/toggle] should show what state it will change to when activated These people are wrong. The simplest thing should be the default and this adds extra indirection (projecting future state from current state), therefore it's not the simplest, therefore it's wrong. Unless of course you mean something strange by "activated".
a9h74j 4y ago
Well put. Could adding either the words: "Current state:" or "Action:" clarify this? With toggles, I'd almost rather see them aligned center with explicit state description to either side.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> two conflicting schools Three, apparently: there are the people (such as me) who think the button should "show" what it does when you click it. It shouldn't indicate anything else (except it's enabled/disabled state, i.e. whether you are allowed to click it). Button text should be constant. If you need an indicator, that should be another widget.
stonecharioteer 4y ago
Oh there is a special kind of hell reserved for the latter crowd.
- amelius 4y ago
  Yes, a hell where all the switches show the current state.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Truly the pro-skub and anti-skub of this profession.
- xmcqdpt2 4y ago
  Disable skub [O##] https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/ https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/
Kaotique 4y ago
Glad the latter does not design rockets, planes and cars.
- xmcqdpt2 4y ago
  Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but they do design cars. Aren't tesla menus full of those kind of toggles?
  - bklw 4y ago
    Yes they are, but the labels don't change when the setting is toggled. It says what it is, and the toggle says if it's on or off. The toggle is just a visual, it can be tapped just like a checkbox.
jaitsu 4y ago
"X is currently disabled" resolves it
- tjansen 4y ago
  Not for me, labels like that confuse me even more. I rather have just "X" with a checkbox next to it. The root issue are negations like "disable X".
ajuc 4y ago
"DisablED" vs "disablE"
- grupthink 4y ago
  [Disabled] ----O [Disable]
IanCal 4y ago
I think a nicer framing is Should this show the state or the action? This gets messiest imo when it's a toggleable button like thing, or an unclear link. Buttons seem good candidates for "trigger an action", checkboxes instead suit "this is the state".
- Gareth321 4y ago
  Simple solution: change the label on action. "Flubber enabled" [toggle ON] "Flubber disabled" [toggle OFF]
  - IanCal 4y ago
    I don't really like this as it's not clear to me until I use it that I see it's a changing label. I don't want to have to interact to discover what will happen if I do. The toggle being off means it looks like "Flubber disabled: off" or "Flubber disabled: no" but it means "Flubber disabled: yes"
  - dusted 4y ago
    Flubber enabled [X] Flubber disabled [ ] <-- Does that mean that flubber is not disabled ? Never touch the label, and never tell state outside of the checkbox: Flubber [X] <-- Clearly, flubber is enabled. Flubber [ ] <-- Obviously, there's no flubber.
    - godelski 4y ago
      Wouldn't the confusion only exist if it was Enable Flubber [X] But not when labeled Flubber Enabled [X]? To me there problem here is understanding if the toggle is displaying a state or action because English is limited. But in the past tense version that is far less confusing because it clearly expresses that this is a state and cannot be an action (i.e. "Would you like to Flubber Enabled?" doesn't work nor does "Would you like to Enabled Flubber?" but "Would you like to Enable Flubber?" does). The "ed" matters as well as the word positions. The reason being is that the second word describes the state of the first which is why you can change it. In your example it is easy to understand with the checkbox but the thread at hand is about how toggle switches' visual appearance is confusing so your example is clearly not obvious (otherwise this thread wouldn't be on the front page). The idea of toggling the label means that there are now two indicators of __state__ that should verify one another and thus reduce confusion.
strken 4y ago
If it's a switch, I don't understand why it can't be represented as a switch: Fnurbification disabled O | Fnurbification enabled Of course, UX design metaphors based on actual mechanical devices aren't cool anymore, but a brave enough soul can ignore coolness in favour of functionality.
- xxs 4y ago
  enabled should be the top (vertically) choice
- q3k 4y ago
  Even better: Fnurbification enabled | O Fnurbification disabled :)
  - numpad0 4y ago
    I think the way it's done in aerospace is FNURB NORM c- ALTN or else FNURB [ ] < normally blank [ ] < shows ALTN when selected
    - ilyt 4y ago
      It would probably have TEST as 3rd option
  - AndrewDucker 4y ago
    Light switches are on when they're in the down position.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      (A) What? Not. Off: https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/light-switch-in-off-position-picture-id477996737?k=6&m=477996737&s=170667a&w=0&h=XhkbS_0IHsIWI9voL0L2JQH8vZjmGrSv-HTZpft_bUc= https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/light-switch-in-off-pos... Also off: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Rocker_light_switch.jpg/150px-Rocker_light_switch.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Ro... Unless you mean this kind that offer either way: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BTb1oUUYS.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BTb1oUUYS.jpg (B) The standard three way* switch would like a word. * Which actually means two switches (or more).
tobz1000 4y ago
Most comments are in favour of the former, but we've been trained by every media player UI to understand that a button with a pause symbol means that the media is currently playing.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  It's worth noting that physical media players (VCRs, CD players, Tape players) usually have separate play and pause buttons. The Winamp default skin did also. Most of us were trained to expect that before contemporary media players started showing up. I think it's also worth noting that it is usually very obvious what state a media player is in, so it makes sense we would have different expectations from that UI vs one where we aren't sure of the current state.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    Tape players have it because buttons were used to physically actuate controls of the deck. It was easier to have "stop" be mechanics to disengage head, "play" to engage head" and "pause" being just on/off switch for the motor than trying to merge play/pause into 1. > Most of us were trained to expect that before contemporary media players started showing up. CD players started getting play/pause precisely because they didn't need to. Most VCRs also had digital controls (coz moving mechanisms via push of button would be harder with big tapes and heads) and they also did often have play/pause integrated. Some opted for copying tape 1:1, some merged play/pause into one button, it certainly wasnt that all of them had separate pause.
  - swores 4y ago
    > It's worth noting that physical media players (VCRs, CD players, Tape players) usually have separate play and pause buttons. Anecdotally (in UK&EU) every old tape, CD, or VCR player I ever had combined play and pause on a single button, even devices where there was no screen to show current state it was just the norm that the same button toggles the current state.
- francisofascii 4y ago
  > a pause symbol means that the media is currently playing Except when it isn't playing. It get confusing/frustrating when dealing with low volume, buggy software like the Iphone Podcasts app or Bluetooth. Then you think, oh, maybe it's in a paused state.

by somat 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago

It's very easy to reconcile. If you have to have inverse logic in UI (which is wrong, but designers gonna design despise logic or usability), you can just have "Enable"/"Disable" but use other hint showing the current state, say paint the disabled ones red and enabled ones green . Non-default state should also be indicated

mensetmanusman 4y ago

As a user who switches between apps and there isn’t consensus on this… it’s confusing as hell.

naasking 4y ago

First, checkboxes and toggles are not buttons, so that's a slightly deceptive way to describe it. If you use "checkbox" instead, it's immediately clear who's right: > and the people who think the [checkbox/toggle] should show what state it will change to when activated These people are wrong. The simplest thing should be the default and this adds extra indirection (projecting future state from current state), therefore it's not the simplest, therefore it's wrong. Unless of course you mean something strange by "activated".

a9h74j 4y ago

Well put. Could adding either the words: "Current state:" or "Action:" clarify this? With toggles, I'd almost rather see them aligned center with explicit state description to either side.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> two conflicting schools Three, apparently: there are the people (such as me) who think the button should "show" what it does when you click it. It shouldn't indicate anything else (except it's enabled/disabled state, i.e. whether you are allowed to click it). Button text should be constant. If you need an indicator, that should be another widget.

stonecharioteer 4y ago

Oh there is a special kind of hell reserved for the latter crowd.

amelius 4y ago
Yes, a hell where all the switches show the current state.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Truly the pro-skub and anti-skub of this profession.

xmcqdpt2 4y ago
Disable skub [O##] https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/ https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/

Kaotique 4y ago

Glad the latter does not design rockets, planes and cars.

xmcqdpt2 4y ago
Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but they do design cars. Aren't tesla menus full of those kind of toggles?
- bklw 4y ago
  Yes they are, but the labels don't change when the setting is toggled. It says what it is, and the toggle says if it's on or off. The toggle is just a visual, it can be tapped just like a checkbox.

jaitsu 4y ago

"X is currently disabled" resolves it

tjansen 4y ago
Not for me, labels like that confuse me even more. I rather have just "X" with a checkbox next to it. The root issue are negations like "disable X".

ajuc 4y ago

"DisablED" vs "disablE"

grupthink 4y ago
[Disabled] ----O [Disable]

IanCal 4y ago

I think a nicer framing is Should this show the state or the action? This gets messiest imo when it's a toggleable button like thing, or an unclear link. Buttons seem good candidates for "trigger an action", checkboxes instead suit "this is the state".

Gareth321 4y ago
Simple solution: change the label on action. "Flubber enabled" [toggle ON] "Flubber disabled" [toggle OFF]
- IanCal 4y ago
  I don't really like this as it's not clear to me until I use it that I see it's a changing label. I don't want to have to interact to discover what will happen if I do. The toggle being off means it looks like "Flubber disabled: off" or "Flubber disabled: no" but it means "Flubber disabled: yes"
- dusted 4y ago
  Flubber enabled [X] Flubber disabled [ ] <-- Does that mean that flubber is not disabled ? Never touch the label, and never tell state outside of the checkbox: Flubber [X] <-- Clearly, flubber is enabled. Flubber [ ] <-- Obviously, there's no flubber.
  - godelski 4y ago
    Wouldn't the confusion only exist if it was Enable Flubber [X] But not when labeled Flubber Enabled [X]? To me there problem here is understanding if the toggle is displaying a state or action because English is limited. But in the past tense version that is far less confusing because it clearly expresses that this is a state and cannot be an action (i.e. "Would you like to Flubber Enabled?" doesn't work nor does "Would you like to Enabled Flubber?" but "Would you like to Enable Flubber?" does). The "ed" matters as well as the word positions. The reason being is that the second word describes the state of the first which is why you can change it. In your example it is easy to understand with the checkbox but the thread at hand is about how toggle switches' visual appearance is confusing so your example is clearly not obvious (otherwise this thread wouldn't be on the front page). The idea of toggling the label means that there are now two indicators of __state__ that should verify one another and thus reduce confusion.

strken 4y ago

If it's a switch, I don't understand why it can't be represented as a switch: Fnurbification disabled O | Fnurbification enabled Of course, UX design metaphors based on actual mechanical devices aren't cool anymore, but a brave enough soul can ignore coolness in favour of functionality.

xxs 4y ago
enabled should be the top (vertically) choice
q3k 4y ago
Even better: Fnurbification enabled | O Fnurbification disabled :)
- numpad0 4y ago
  I think the way it's done in aerospace is FNURB NORM c- ALTN or else FNURB [ ] < normally blank [ ] < shows ALTN when selected
  - ilyt 4y ago
    It would probably have TEST as 3rd option
- AndrewDucker 4y ago
  Light switches are on when they're in the down position.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    (A) What? Not. Off: https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/light-switch-in-off-position-picture-id477996737?k=6&m=477996737&s=170667a&w=0&h=XhkbS_0IHsIWI9voL0L2JQH8vZjmGrSv-HTZpft_bUc= https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/light-switch-in-off-pos... Also off: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Rocker_light_switch.jpg/150px-Rocker_light_switch.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Ro... Unless you mean this kind that offer either way: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BTb1oUUYS.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BTb1oUUYS.jpg (B) The standard three way* switch would like a word. * Which actually means two switches (or more).

tobz1000 4y ago

Most comments are in favour of the former, but we've been trained by every media player UI to understand that a button with a pause symbol means that the media is currently playing.

dfxm12 4y ago
It's worth noting that physical media players (VCRs, CD players, Tape players) usually have separate play and pause buttons. The Winamp default skin did also. Most of us were trained to expect that before contemporary media players started showing up. I think it's also worth noting that it is usually very obvious what state a media player is in, so it makes sense we would have different expectations from that UI vs one where we aren't sure of the current state.
- ilyt 4y ago
  Tape players have it because buttons were used to physically actuate controls of the deck. It was easier to have "stop" be mechanics to disengage head, "play" to engage head" and "pause" being just on/off switch for the motor than trying to merge play/pause into 1. > Most of us were trained to expect that before contemporary media players started showing up. CD players started getting play/pause precisely because they didn't need to. Most VCRs also had digital controls (coz moving mechanisms via push of button would be harder with big tapes and heads) and they also did often have play/pause integrated. Some opted for copying tape 1:1, some merged play/pause into one button, it certainly wasnt that all of them had separate pause.
- swores 4y ago
  > It's worth noting that physical media players (VCRs, CD players, Tape players) usually have separate play and pause buttons. Anecdotally (in UK&EU) every old tape, CD, or VCR player I ever had combined play and pause on a single button, even devices where there was no screen to show current state it was just the norm that the same button toggles the current state.
francisofascii 4y ago
> a pause symbol means that the media is currently playing Except when it isn't playing. It get confusing/frustrating when dealing with low volume, buggy software like the Iphone Podcasts app or Bluetooth. Then you think, oh, maybe it's in a paused state.