6 ms·

Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smal

Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller, younger victims of the bullies.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the US control and ask why that is. The difference is that China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong.
- rnk 4y ago
  Trying to excuse your bullying behavior by pointing at someone else's behavior isn't actually justifying your own.
- sklargh 4y ago
  "Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Well, exactly. Some of the replies I get are childish and ridiculous. The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast bit China is the bully for finally being able to assert a few claims in the South China Sea... how far can hypocrisy go As for the neighbours' input, we'll ask Mexico, Cuba, and South America...
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      > The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast Curious, what land is this?
      - nonethewiser 4y ago
        He must mean Guam?
        remarkEon 4y ago
        I thought of that but Guam is ~1700nm from the Chinese coast. Surely that can't be it. Camp Casey maybe? That's something like 200mi from the Chinese border (through NK of course).
- adolph 4y ago
  > There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong. Just six comments deep from random coastal volcano and we are already at the Nietzschian übermensch, that escalated quickly! In the larger picture, let us all consider the logical fallacy of tu quoque. A counter-claim that "you do it too" does not refute the original claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Tell that to the British/Spanish/French Empire or Uncle Sam!
    - nwiswell 4y ago
      So you're suggesting we should apply mid-1800s ethical standards to a global superpower in 2023? Colonial attitudes have changed. Western powers gave up their territorial maximalist doctrine a long time ago. Basically all former colonies of the West are now independent. Meanwhile China is engaging in neo-colonialism with Belt and Road. You can handwave about "might makes right" but the reality is that by the standards of our day, China is not proving to be a force for justice or equity either at home or on the world stage and we ought to frown on that.
      - mytailorisrich 4y ago
        What I am saying is that "ethical standard" have never been a thing with respect to those kind of issues.
        nwiswell 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure that's just objectively untrue. Some nations are subject to public opinion and the ethical sensibility of their electorates, and some are not. That comes into stark relief when some nations chop up journalists inside their embassies.
        4y ago
- throwaway290 4y ago
  The point is not claim but action. Many other countries have water disputes but no one outright builds new military airbases in international territory and bullies others whenever they come close. Some sort of peaceful, lawful process is followed in all cases but one. Saying that ROC and PRC have same claims doesn't say they would be same in their disregard for general order
- mlindner 4y ago
  > China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... This is ahistorical. The nine dash line is a creation of the CCP, not of the ROC. It was not claimed from the ROC's time. More importantly however, it's just a claim. China went and built military bases on objects that were in other countries' already existing territory before the nine dash line was created and then committed military attacks against civilian vessels who used to use the areas to force them away. > Look at what the US control and ask why that is. Much of it is former territories that were taken over after WW2 defeat of the Imperial Japan, and many of those territories have over time been either been given independence, given the option of independence, or given to other countries.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    > The nine dash line is a creation of the CCP, not of the ROC. It was not claimed from the ROC's time. That's factually incorrect. The ROC calls it the eleven dash line (PRC removed 2 dashes at the border with Vietnam) and they were the ones who created it before the PRC even existed [1] Mainland China has taken possession because they are now strong enough to do it. It was only a claim before because they were too weak to assert their claim physically, which any large power would have done, or to make the others recognize that claim. > other countries' already existing territory The borders of all the countries in the areas were decided by Western colonial powers, and China was simply too weak to assert its interests and wasn't invited. There is not right or wrong here. This is simply power and how things have always worked. It's naive to buy the "good guys bad guys" or "bully" narrative, which is only propaganda from one side against the other. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller, younger victims of the bullies.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the US control and ask why that is. The difference is that China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong.

rnk 4y ago
Trying to excuse your bullying behavior by pointing at someone else's behavior isn't actually justifying your own.
sklargh 4y ago
"Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Well, exactly. Some of the replies I get are childish and ridiculous. The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast bit China is the bully for finally being able to assert a few claims in the South China Sea... how far can hypocrisy go As for the neighbours' input, we'll ask Mexico, Cuba, and South America...
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    > The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast Curious, what land is this?
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      He must mean Guam?
      - remarkEon 4y ago
        I thought of that but Guam is ~1700nm from the Chinese coast. Surely that can't be it. Camp Casey maybe? That's something like 200mi from the Chinese border (through NK of course).
adolph 4y ago
> There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong. Just six comments deep from random coastal volcano and we are already at the Nietzschian übermensch, that escalated quickly! In the larger picture, let us all consider the logical fallacy of tu quoque. A counter-claim that "you do it too" does not refute the original claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Tell that to the British/Spanish/French Empire or Uncle Sam!
  - nwiswell 4y ago
    So you're suggesting we should apply mid-1800s ethical standards to a global superpower in 2023? Colonial attitudes have changed. Western powers gave up their territorial maximalist doctrine a long time ago. Basically all former colonies of the West are now independent. Meanwhile China is engaging in neo-colonialism with Belt and Road. You can handwave about "might makes right" but the reality is that by the standards of our day, China is not proving to be a force for justice or equity either at home or on the world stage and we ought to frown on that.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      What I am saying is that "ethical standard" have never been a thing with respect to those kind of issues.
      - nwiswell 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure that's just objectively untrue. Some nations are subject to public opinion and the ethical sensibility of their electorates, and some are not. That comes into stark relief when some nations chop up journalists inside their embassies.
        4y ago
throwaway290 4y ago
The point is not claim but action. Many other countries have water disputes but no one outright builds new military airbases in international territory and bullies others whenever they come close. Some sort of peaceful, lawful process is followed in all cases but one. Saying that ROC and PRC have same claims doesn't say they would be same in their disregard for general order
mlindner 4y ago
> China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... This is ahistorical. The nine dash line is a creation of the CCP, not of the ROC. It was not claimed from the ROC's time. More importantly however, it's just a claim. China went and built military bases on objects that were in other countries' already existing territory before the nine dash line was created and then committed military attacks against civilian vessels who used to use the areas to force them away. > Look at what the US control and ask why that is. Much of it is former territories that were taken over after WW2 defeat of the Imperial Japan, and many of those territories have over time been either been given independence, given the option of independence, or given to other countries.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  > The nine dash line is a creation of the CCP, not of the ROC. It was not claimed from the ROC's time. That's factually incorrect. The ROC calls it the eleven dash line (PRC removed 2 dashes at the border with Vietnam) and they were the ones who created it before the PRC even existed [1] Mainland China has taken possession because they are now strong enough to do it. It was only a claim before because they were too weak to assert their claim physically, which any large power would have done, or to make the others recognize that claim. > other countries' already existing territory The borders of all the countries in the areas were decided by Western colonial powers, and China was simply too weak to assert its interests and wasn't invited. There is not right or wrong here. This is simply power and how things have always worked. It's naive to buy the "good guys bad guys" or "bully" narrative, which is only propaganda from one side against the other. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]