5 ms·

When my older relatives wanted to send money to family/friends, I used to recommend Zelle, which was better than the never-heard-of-it apps they were considerin

When my older relatives wanted to send money to family/friends, I used to recommend Zelle, which was better than the never-heard-of-it apps they were considering. But with all the problems I keep hearing about Zelle, they're off the list. Most of them have iPhones and so I just tell them to send cash via Messages/Apple Cash. I don't know how reversible that sort of thing is, in the case of fraud, but as long as they can see the messaging history with the person before they send it, it seems like that's a pretty low risk. Any other suggestions for older adults?

neon_electro 4y ago
I no longer recommend Cash App (formerly Square Cash) because they explicitly removed the ability to have inbound transactions be automatically deposited into your bank account. They left it on for anyone who already had it on, but I specifically signed my dad up on the assumption that sending him money would be as frictionless as possible. Instead, Square/Block would love for that money to stay in the Cash App account, not actually available for him to spend in his own account. I continue to use Cash App because I continue to have this feature; if they ever remove it, I'm gone.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  I got burned by the Cash app as well, with bait-and-switch tactics around their merchant discounts. Their system had problems registering merchants correctly, so the discounts pretty much never went through for me. I tried to get support but they didn't care. I bounced.
- ezfe 4y ago
  I don't actually blame them for this, because they have to make money somehow. If they make money by having your money in your account for a few hours/days, idc. So long as they make it frictionless to start a withdrawal - a tap or two, that's all I ask.
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    I do blame them for this - they can get fucked. For my dad, Auto Cash Out was exactly the "frictionless" experience he needed, and he didn't need any of the BS Cash App wants to put in front of him. I'm happy to help Square/Block make money with my engagement/interaction with Cash App, but they clearly can't figure it out without severely harming the UX in the process. Therefore, they aren't recommended.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
I've never recommended Zelle. Tales of their complete lack of customer service, consumer protection, and unwillingness to be held accountable are not new. ACH is archaic (and has its own dangers e.g. pull transactions) but it generally works.
- wmf 4y ago
  Consumers can't initiate ACHes so it doesn't compete with Venmo/Zelle/etc.
  - Falcorian 4y ago
    False. Every time you transfer money from an account at one bank to another you're using ACH. Same with moving funds from banks to stock brokers or brokers to banks. The real reason it doesn't compete is its slow, and many banks have terms of service that say something like "You can only set it up between accounts you own" so sending to other people is often technically a violation of your agreement with a bank.
    - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
      Some banks don't have a way for a customer to initiate an ACH, unless maybe calling them. Nothing in their app or website for it.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > and unwillingness to be held accountable I believe that one of the design considerations between the banks that developed Zelle was specifically to move more liability to the customer for fraudulent transactions.
explodingwaffle 4y ago
Brit here- I usually send money to friends and family using bank transfers with internet banking- it’s instant, there’s no fee (AFAIK) and all you need are someone’s account number, and sort code, which everyone has. Is this just not an option in the states? It’s insane to me that y’all use (need??) third party apps for something as simple as sending money around.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > Is this just not an option in the states? Correct. We also still use paper checks fairly extensively, and chip/NFC cards are a recent advancement.
- dobs 4y ago
  There are a few bank-to-bank mechanisms (ACH, wire transfers) but they're slow (often multiple business days) and often have fees associated with them ($20+ for wires). The lack of good transfer mechanisms is what has led to a proliferation of alternatives (e.g. Venmo, Cash App). Zelle has emerged as a bank-approved mechanism for "instant" funds transfer.
- wtracy 4y ago
  In the USA, sending a wire transfer is usually $15-$20, and some banks charge $20 to receive a wire transfer.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > sending a wire transfer is usually $15-$20 Will note that there are banks that offer sending and receiving wires for free.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      Wow, did not realize that banks also charge for receiving incoming wires, but most of the big guys charge around $15: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-wh...
throw7 4y ago
I heard the feds are working on a similar system called fednow: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
basch 4y ago
It wont be a popular answer here but Facebook Pay now Meta Pay is a great product. It is instant, as in, you can send someone standing in front of an ATM money, and they can pull the money out seconds later. Not pending, but completed deposits. For free. It is the "it just works" way to move money between peoples debit cards in the US. It is rock solid, a large network of us use it all the time, and it is significantly more frictionless than Paypal/Venmo/Cashapp/Zelle when you already talk on Messenger. 4 clicks and the money appears.
- benmanns 4y ago
  Oh that's pretty cool. It looks like there are no fees for the service (at least for now), where Venmo has a 1.75% fee ($0.25 min $25 max) and Cash App has a 0.5%-1.75% fee ($0.25 min) for the same instant withdrawal service.
  - basch 4y ago
    It also doesn't require the banks cooperation, and has pretty high limits at 10k per transaction, and per month. Basically facebook fronting money because it believes it can trust the profile. I suspect the personal side of it will remain free. It's a gateway drug to having your card on file. Then there is less friction when you see something on marketplace you want. They can recover money on the marketplace side of things.
    - astrange 4y ago
      The bank does need to cooperate to accept the transaction "instantly", but mostly they do since it's good for them.
- astrange 4y ago
  PayPal/Venmo/Apple Cash also support instant transfers through this method - basically it just charges a negative amount to your debit card. It's not always free though, and most people don't actually need "instant" unless they're standing in front of an ATM.
ZeroCool2u 4y ago
I use Google Pay with my wife and it works great. Never had an issue.

neon_electro 4y ago

I no longer recommend Cash App (formerly Square Cash) because they explicitly removed the ability to have inbound transactions be automatically deposited into your bank account. They left it on for anyone who already had it on, but I specifically signed my dad up on the assumption that sending him money would be as frictionless as possible. Instead, Square/Block would love for that money to stay in the Cash App account, not actually available for him to spend in his own account. I continue to use Cash App because I continue to have this feature; if they ever remove it, I'm gone.

gnicholas 4y ago
I got burned by the Cash app as well, with bait-and-switch tactics around their merchant discounts. Their system had problems registering merchants correctly, so the discounts pretty much never went through for me. I tried to get support but they didn't care. I bounced.
ezfe 4y ago
I don't actually blame them for this, because they have to make money somehow. If they make money by having your money in your account for a few hours/days, idc. So long as they make it frictionless to start a withdrawal - a tap or two, that's all I ask.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  I do blame them for this - they can get fucked. For my dad, Auto Cash Out was exactly the "frictionless" experience he needed, and he didn't need any of the BS Cash App wants to put in front of him. I'm happy to help Square/Block make money with my engagement/interaction with Cash App, but they clearly can't figure it out without severely harming the UX in the process. Therefore, they aren't recommended.

inferiorhuman 4y ago

I've never recommended Zelle. Tales of their complete lack of customer service, consumer protection, and unwillingness to be held accountable are not new. ACH is archaic (and has its own dangers e.g. pull transactions) but it generally works.

wmf 4y ago
Consumers can't initiate ACHes so it doesn't compete with Venmo/Zelle/etc.
- Falcorian 4y ago
  False. Every time you transfer money from an account at one bank to another you're using ACH. Same with moving funds from banks to stock brokers or brokers to banks. The real reason it doesn't compete is its slow, and many banks have terms of service that say something like "You can only set it up between accounts you own" so sending to other people is often technically a violation of your agreement with a bank.
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    Some banks don't have a way for a customer to initiate an ACH, unless maybe calling them. Nothing in their app or website for it.
FireBeyond 4y ago
> and unwillingness to be held accountable I believe that one of the design considerations between the banks that developed Zelle was specifically to move more liability to the customer for fraudulent transactions.

explodingwaffle 4y ago

Brit here- I usually send money to friends and family using bank transfers with internet banking- it’s instant, there’s no fee (AFAIK) and all you need are someone’s account number, and sort code, which everyone has. Is this just not an option in the states? It’s insane to me that y’all use (need??) third party apps for something as simple as sending money around.

ceejayoz 4y ago
> Is this just not an option in the states? Correct. We also still use paper checks fairly extensively, and chip/NFC cards are a recent advancement.
dobs 4y ago
There are a few bank-to-bank mechanisms (ACH, wire transfers) but they're slow (often multiple business days) and often have fees associated with them ($20+ for wires). The lack of good transfer mechanisms is what has led to a proliferation of alternatives (e.g. Venmo, Cash App). Zelle has emerged as a bank-approved mechanism for "instant" funds transfer.
wtracy 4y ago
In the USA, sending a wire transfer is usually $15-$20, and some banks charge $20 to receive a wire transfer.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > sending a wire transfer is usually $15-$20 Will note that there are banks that offer sending and receiving wires for free.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    Wow, did not realize that banks also charge for receiving incoming wires, but most of the big guys charge around $15: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-wh...

throw7 4y ago

I heard the feds are working on a similar system called fednow: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...

basch 4y ago

It wont be a popular answer here but Facebook Pay now Meta Pay is a great product. It is instant, as in, you can send someone standing in front of an ATM money, and they can pull the money out seconds later. Not pending, but completed deposits. For free. It is the "it just works" way to move money between peoples debit cards in the US. It is rock solid, a large network of us use it all the time, and it is significantly more frictionless than Paypal/Venmo/Cashapp/Zelle when you already talk on Messenger. 4 clicks and the money appears.

benmanns 4y ago
Oh that's pretty cool. It looks like there are no fees for the service (at least for now), where Venmo has a 1.75% fee ($0.25 min $25 max) and Cash App has a 0.5%-1.75% fee ($0.25 min) for the same instant withdrawal service.
- basch 4y ago
  It also doesn't require the banks cooperation, and has pretty high limits at 10k per transaction, and per month. Basically facebook fronting money because it believes it can trust the profile. I suspect the personal side of it will remain free. It's a gateway drug to having your card on file. Then there is less friction when you see something on marketplace you want. They can recover money on the marketplace side of things.
  - astrange 4y ago
    The bank does need to cooperate to accept the transaction "instantly", but mostly they do since it's good for them.
astrange 4y ago
PayPal/Venmo/Apple Cash also support instant transfers through this method - basically it just charges a negative amount to your debit card. It's not always free though, and most people don't actually need "instant" unless they're standing in front of an ATM.

ZeroCool2u 4y ago

I use Google Pay with my wife and it works great. Never had an issue.