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> how in the world humanity survived to this point By outbreeding the fact that we also died a bunch for unknown reasons. And I think this tweet is actually a

> how in the world humanity survived to this point By outbreeding the fact that we also died a bunch for unknown reasons. And I think this tweet is actually a fairly calming view on things. I wouldn't hesitate to share a room with a couple extra people, so I won't worry about a few candles occasionally, because they're a nice benefit to the space. Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves, because they don't have any ambience benefits and my local power grid is quite stable. Living in bubbles might be biologically safer, but we're also creatures that need to live, so it's not a tradeoff most people would (or should) accept. We can make gradual incremental change as we learn more though, and we should try to do so.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves Surely you mean avoiding dangerous electric stoves, which emit hazardous electromagnetic radiation? Edit: Yup, everyone bit. Christ you're a bunch of dafties.
- fastball 4y ago
  Is non-ionizing radiation hazardous?
  - sampo 4y ago
    > Is non-ionizing radiation hazardous? At LTE and WiFi frequency bands, it can be used to spread a great deal of misinformation.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    it depends on the dose. Visible light from a nuke will kill you more quckly than the gamma rays if youre close enough.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    Put your hand on the cooker ring and tell me.
    - CyberDildonics 4y ago
      You understand that if things touch each other the heat transfer isn't from radiation right?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        You understand you've been utterly whooshed, right?
        CyberDildonics 4y ago
        To be clear your joke is: 1. You don't understand something 2. Someone tells you that you don't understand 3. Got you good, can't believe you fell for my ignorance
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        It's like a party trick with you, isn't it? Can you point out what you think I don't understand?
        CyberDildonics 4y ago
        It's like a party trick with you, isn't it? I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Can you point out what you think I don't understand? Electric stoves don't give off harmful radiation.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        > Electric stoves don't give off harmful radiation. Yes, that's the joke. You got whooshed. Don't worry, it happens.
- kadoban 4y ago
  > Surely you mean avoiding dangerous electric stoves, which emit hazardous electromagnetic radiation? The "electromagnetic radiation" from stoves has not been shown to be harmful in the amounts absorbed during cooking. Particles in the air _have_ been shown to be harmful, even ignoring CO and gas leak risks from gas stoves.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > even ignoring CO and gas leak risks from gas stoves Right, but they don't generate CO and they don't leak. If they do, they are faulty and should be repaired or replaced. Don't you have safety inspections where you are?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - kadoban 4y ago
      > [...] they don't leak. If they do [...]
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Not sure what your fairly illiterate point is, there.
- delecti 4y ago
  Based on this [1] source, which is clearly biased against electric stoves, an electric heater (lets include a stove in that) "can generate over 100 milliGauss (mG)". The SI equivalent unit is the Tesla, with 1 Tesla being equal to 10,000 Gauss. So that 100 mG from the stove is equal to 10 microTesla. A fridge magnet is about 1 miliTesla [2], so just holding a fridge magnet is 100 times as much "harmful" radiation. It's absurd to think electric stoves are a concern. [1] https://emfguardtips.com/do-electric-stoves-emit-emf/ https://emfguardtips.com/do-electric-stoves-emit-emf/ [2] https://sciencing.com/strong-standard-magnet-6853786.html https://sciencing.com/strong-standard-magnet-6853786.html
musingsole 4y ago
> By outbreeding the fact that we also died a bunch for unknown reasons. You really do the robustness of the human body and immune system a disservice.
- kadoban 4y ago
  The human body and immune system is pretty good at, on average, keeping us living long enough to produce offspring and a bit after. If you want any more than that, you should do what you can to help it along, including avoiding known harmful substances where you can.
koolba 4y ago
> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves, because they don't have any ambience benefits and my local power grid is quite stable. Not sure about ambience, but pita bread heated directly on the flame of a gas stove cannot be beat. It’s faster and more delicious than any electric toaster.
s17n 4y ago
> We can make gradual incremental change as we learn more though, and we should try to do so. We shouldn't thoughtlessly make gradual changes which sacrifice quality of life for safety (which is the direction that these changes always seem to go) without actually deciding that the benefits are worth the costs.
- delecti 4y ago
  Agreed, and that was my entire point. I think the tradeoffs for candles are worth it, I don't think the tradeoffs for gas stoves are worth it, and they probably aren't for quite a few people.
  - s17n 4y ago
    I think the problem is that we don't have a great way of quantifying the impact, so the tradeoff always ends up being something like "people are literally going to die, is pleasant light worth human lives?" The answer IMO is "yes, if the number of deaths is small enough relative to the total amount of pleasure that the pretty lights create", but without a quantitative framework it's pretty tough to make that call.
tristor 4y ago
> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves, because they don't have any ambience benefits and my local power grid is quite stable. Except that all the concern around gas stoves is mostly BS. The issue with cooking is not the heat source, it's actually the fumes from cooking itself. The ONLY safe way to cook from an indoor air quality perspective is to have a properly installed externally vented range hood (and makeup air if needed). It doesn't matter if you use induction, radiant, or coil electric, they all produce just as much cooking fumes as gas, and the gas burning has a negligible impact. I've confirmed this myself many times over with calibrated sensors. The worst thing about indoor air quality in the US is that the US doesn't require external venting in kitchens by code, and it should. The PM2.5 spikes in nearly every American household the moment someone starts cooking, and to dangerous levels for the person doing the cooking. American houses also have horrible ventilation generally, with newer houses being even worse as they get better sealed for efficiency, but without being required to provide active ventilation. It should be legally required that every home, including rental apartments, be constructed with an externally vented range hood and an energy recovery style active ventilation for fresh air exchange. I challenge folks to improve their indoor air quality and see how much it benefits them by simply opening your windows up at least once a day (which unfortunately isn't the most energy efficient thing to do), and finding a way to actively ventilate your kitchen when you cook (if nothing better, a box fan in an open window is not a bad way to go. recirculating range hoods do nothing).
- danans 4y ago
  > It doesn't matter if you use induction, radiant, or coil electric, they all produce just as much cooking fumes as gas, and the gas burning has a negligible impact. > I've confirmed this myself many times over with calibrated sensors. This really means nothing considering that rigorous studies and metastudies [1] have been performed and the results published that demonstrate the opposite: that gas stoves result in CO and other harmful emissions that electric stoves don't, independent of what is being cooked. Those studies aren't a global conspiracy against gas stoves. If you have similarly published your data and it has been reviewed, please do share it with the world. > The worst thing about indoor air quality in the US is that the US doesn't require external venting in kitchens by code, and it should I agree wholeheartedly, but the problem doesn't end there. Most range hoods in single family homes are externally vented, but there is a behavioral problem, which is that most people use the kitchen hood vent as a way to exhaust smoke odors only, usually only in response to a smoke alarm going off. Even worse, after enough rounds of this, many people end up disabling the smoke alarms near their kitchen rather than taking it as an indication that there is an air quality problem. If the only effect of these studies is to alert people to the necessity of turning on their hood vent and opening a window for makeup air every time they cook, especially on a gas stove, that's a win. 1. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/23/8972 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/23/8972

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves Surely you mean avoiding dangerous electric stoves, which emit hazardous electromagnetic radiation? Edit: Yup, everyone bit. Christ you're a bunch of dafties.

fastball 4y ago
Is non-ionizing radiation hazardous?
- sampo 4y ago
  > Is non-ionizing radiation hazardous? At LTE and WiFi frequency bands, it can be used to spread a great deal of misinformation.
- trashtester 4y ago
  it depends on the dose. Visible light from a nuke will kill you more quckly than the gamma rays if youre close enough.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Put your hand on the cooker ring and tell me.
  - CyberDildonics 4y ago
    You understand that if things touch each other the heat transfer isn't from radiation right?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      You understand you've been utterly whooshed, right?
      - CyberDildonics 4y ago
        To be clear your joke is: 1. You don't understand something 2. Someone tells you that you don't understand 3. Got you good, can't believe you fell for my ignorance
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        It's like a party trick with you, isn't it? Can you point out what you think I don't understand?
        CyberDildonics 4y ago
        It's like a party trick with you, isn't it? I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Can you point out what you think I don't understand? Electric stoves don't give off harmful radiation.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        > Electric stoves don't give off harmful radiation. Yes, that's the joke. You got whooshed. Don't worry, it happens.
kadoban 4y ago
> Surely you mean avoiding dangerous electric stoves, which emit hazardous electromagnetic radiation? The "electromagnetic radiation" from stoves has not been shown to be harmful in the amounts absorbed during cooking. Particles in the air _have_ been shown to be harmful, even ignoring CO and gas leak risks from gas stoves.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > even ignoring CO and gas leak risks from gas stoves Right, but they don't generate CO and they don't leak. If they do, they are faulty and should be repaired or replaced. Don't you have safety inspections where you are?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kadoban 4y ago
    > [...] they don't leak. If they do [...]
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      Not sure what your fairly illiterate point is, there.
delecti 4y ago
Based on this [1] source, which is clearly biased against electric stoves, an electric heater (lets include a stove in that) "can generate over 100 milliGauss (mG)". The SI equivalent unit is the Tesla, with 1 Tesla being equal to 10,000 Gauss. So that 100 mG from the stove is equal to 10 microTesla. A fridge magnet is about 1 miliTesla [2], so just holding a fridge magnet is 100 times as much "harmful" radiation. It's absurd to think electric stoves are a concern. [1] https://emfguardtips.com/do-electric-stoves-emit-emf/ https://emfguardtips.com/do-electric-stoves-emit-emf/ [2] https://sciencing.com/strong-standard-magnet-6853786.html https://sciencing.com/strong-standard-magnet-6853786.html

musingsole 4y ago

> By outbreeding the fact that we also died a bunch for unknown reasons. You really do the robustness of the human body and immune system a disservice.

kadoban 4y ago
The human body and immune system is pretty good at, on average, keeping us living long enough to produce offspring and a bit after. If you want any more than that, you should do what you can to help it along, including avoiding known harmful substances where you can.

koolba 4y ago

> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves, because they don't have any ambience benefits and my local power grid is quite stable. Not sure about ambience, but pita bread heated directly on the flame of a gas stove cannot be beat. It’s faster and more delicious than any electric toaster.

s17n 4y ago

> We can make gradual incremental change as we learn more though, and we should try to do so. We shouldn't thoughtlessly make gradual changes which sacrifice quality of life for safety (which is the direction that these changes always seem to go) without actually deciding that the benefits are worth the costs.

delecti 4y ago
Agreed, and that was my entire point. I think the tradeoffs for candles are worth it, I don't think the tradeoffs for gas stoves are worth it, and they probably aren't for quite a few people.
- s17n 4y ago
  I think the problem is that we don't have a great way of quantifying the impact, so the tradeoff always ends up being something like "people are literally going to die, is pleasant light worth human lives?" The answer IMO is "yes, if the number of deaths is small enough relative to the total amount of pleasure that the pretty lights create", but without a quantitative framework it's pretty tough to make that call.

tristor 4y ago

> Meanwhile it's an absolute no-brainer (for me and many other people) to avoid gas stoves, because they don't have any ambience benefits and my local power grid is quite stable. Except that all the concern around gas stoves is mostly BS. The issue with cooking is not the heat source, it's actually the fumes from cooking itself. The ONLY safe way to cook from an indoor air quality perspective is to have a properly installed externally vented range hood (and makeup air if needed). It doesn't matter if you use induction, radiant, or coil electric, they all produce just as much cooking fumes as gas, and the gas burning has a negligible impact. I've confirmed this myself many times over with calibrated sensors. The worst thing about indoor air quality in the US is that the US doesn't require external venting in kitchens by code, and it should. The PM2.5 spikes in nearly every American household the moment someone starts cooking, and to dangerous levels for the person doing the cooking. American houses also have horrible ventilation generally, with newer houses being even worse as they get better sealed for efficiency, but without being required to provide active ventilation. It should be legally required that every home, including rental apartments, be constructed with an externally vented range hood and an energy recovery style active ventilation for fresh air exchange. I challenge folks to improve their indoor air quality and see how much it benefits them by simply opening your windows up at least once a day (which unfortunately isn't the most energy efficient thing to do), and finding a way to actively ventilate your kitchen when you cook (if nothing better, a box fan in an open window is not a bad way to go. recirculating range hoods do nothing).

danans 4y ago
> It doesn't matter if you use induction, radiant, or coil electric, they all produce just as much cooking fumes as gas, and the gas burning has a negligible impact. > I've confirmed this myself many times over with calibrated sensors. This really means nothing considering that rigorous studies and metastudies [1] have been performed and the results published that demonstrate the opposite: that gas stoves result in CO and other harmful emissions that electric stoves don't, independent of what is being cooked. Those studies aren't a global conspiracy against gas stoves. If you have similarly published your data and it has been reviewed, please do share it with the world. > The worst thing about indoor air quality in the US is that the US doesn't require external venting in kitchens by code, and it should I agree wholeheartedly, but the problem doesn't end there. Most range hoods in single family homes are externally vented, but there is a behavioral problem, which is that most people use the kitchen hood vent as a way to exhaust smoke odors only, usually only in response to a smoke alarm going off. Even worse, after enough rounds of this, many people end up disabling the smoke alarms near their kitchen rather than taking it as an indication that there is an air quality problem. If the only effect of these studies is to alert people to the necessity of turning on their hood vent and opening a window for makeup air every time they cook, especially on a gas stove, that's a win. 1. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/23/8972 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/23/8972