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Having not used a smart phone for ~5 years now, I can say that it is totally a workable solution - however, there are, of course trade-offs, and several persist

Having not used a smart phone for ~5 years now, I can say that it is totally a workable solution - however, there are, of course trade-offs, and several persistent annoyances. Rather than get into a list, I will present the one thing that I find the most frustrating: Our society expects you to have and use a smart phone for nearly everything. This might be less annoying if it meant only new functions or supplemented old things, but in my experience it's the opposite. It's often the most simple low-fi things we have been doing for ages, that have been overhauled to require a smartphone, app, and data plan. It's hard to be looked at as 'the person complicating things', when everybody else expects you to carry a luxury item (and an expensive monthly service bill), just to perform a basic task, like paying a bill, or reading a menu. I'm not one to wander around expecting society to cater to my own needs, but I openly admit that I find this Twilight Zone-like first-world problem (What do you mean, you can't use our app?) the most infuriating. With that said, you can still get by in most situations, but I don't see the above getting better on into the future, unless there is some cultural revolution about how view and use technology.

titanomachy 4y ago
Calling a smartphone a "luxury item" if you live in America (or similar) is a bit disingenuous. Anything that has 85% market penetration is by definition not a luxury item. In some countries this could be an accurate description, though. And I agree with the overall sentiment, I would like it to be easier to get through my day without using a smartphone.
- lastofthemojito 4y ago
  Yeah, even as a smartphone owner, I find it annoying how some places just assume you're able (and willing!) to install some arbitrary app to do business with them, etc. That being said, it really doesn't have to be all that expensive. Sure, if you buy the newest iPhone every year and get a high-end Verizon plan, that'll cost some dough. But you can get a used or low-end smartphone and a cheap plan - they're out there: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-cheap-cell-phone-plans,review-4504.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-cheap-cell-phone-plans,rev...
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > Yeah, even as a smartphone owner, I find it annoying how some places just assume you're able (and willing!) to install some arbitrary app to do business with them, etc. Especially when they're a broken mess. This summer I visited LA, and at one restaurant they had a QR-code menu. They didn't require installing any app, it just sent you to some web page. I had good service (outside, LTE, full bars) but it was impossible for me to see the menu. The thing would never load. Sometimes it would somewhat load, but when scrolling and trying to pick things (it was an ungodly mess of drop-down lists) it would disappear again. > But you can get a used or low-end smartphone and a cheap plan The above was on an iPhone 7, which I admit is "old" (but it is up-to-date software wise). So, I wonder what you mean by "cheap low-end phone", and how that would compare with mine. Especially since we have some low-end Android phones at work, which are "current models". And the scrolling in the settings app, for example, feels much less smooth than on my geriatric phone. They just lag all the time. My phone basically never does that, which is the reason I'm not particularly looking to get a new one. This was the first time I couldn't have my phone do what I needed. The site worked well-enough on my friend's 11 pro.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  It adheres to the definition. The problem with the phrasing is that nearly all people in America and many other countries are inundated with luxury items to the point where we view them as basic necessities. That doesn't make them necessities, they are still lifestyle choices that while more affordable than ever are still superfluous to our existence. In other words, we're all spoiled brats ;)
  - chefkoch 4y ago
    At least in Germany you get a Smartphone for way less than 100€ and a call + SMS + 4GB data flat for 5€. If that is luxury what is going to the cinema for 20€ (movie and popcorn) for 2 hours?
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      5 EUR per month for service? That is crazy cheap in a highly developed country. Which provider?
      - cyxxon 4y ago
        You don't get that consistently. You can go to check24.de and get their sim.de offer for 5gb data and sms/telephone flat, but that's a limited time deal. So technically yes, but in general you are more in the 8-10€ ballpark for this kind of offering.
        chefkoch 4y ago
        winsim.de gets you this all the time. They just call it temporary like these permanent going out of business sales. I get 15gb for 10€ from them.
      - domh 4y ago
        In the UK I get a sim-only deal with unlimited calls and 4GB of data for £6 with Smarty: https://smarty.co.uk/plans/4gb-data https://smarty.co.uk/plans/4gb-data Recently moved and didn't have internet service setup yet. I got an unlimited data bundle from them for £17 for 30 days. Felt like a pretty good deal, and it didn't get throttled at all. Latency was a slight issue with zoom calls though.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  No kidding. India has GDP per capita less than 2.500 USD and mobile phones are ubiquitous -- old, poor, kids, whatever. Plus service is dirt cheap. Reliance JioPhone is insanely cheap: https://www.jio.com/en-in/jiophone https://www.jio.com/en-in/jiophone
parker_mountain 4y ago
> luxury item (and an expensive monthly service bill) Before applying any subsidies for low income people, you can get a perfectly usable smartphone for under $40 and unlimited data cell service (slow but usable for basic tasks) for $10/month. An iPhone, with service, can be had for a total of under $50/month. These aren't luxury items anymore.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  They should not be required for anything either.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    Neither should a bank account, or a car, or weather-appropriate clothes, but they can be pretty damn handy.
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      Nice reply. I laughed. At the office, when I am asked "Do you really need it?" I sometimes answer: "I don't _need_ my left leg, but I really like it." Same for toilet paper in the stalls.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      Bad analogies are bad analogies. You can still have two systems in parallel instead of requiring a single tool to do the job.
      - simondotau 4y ago
        Bad arguments are bad arguments. Cash and bank accounts are two systems in parallel. Cars and public transport (or bicycles, or walking) are systems in parallel. Good clothing and poor clothing are systems in parallel. A physical driver license and a digital driver license are systems in parallel. Banking/services on a mobile phone and visiting a physical store are systems in parallel. Where is the bad analogy?
1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-us-hate-being-forced-to-install-apps-to-do-business-costing-brands-billions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-u...
wildrhythms 4y ago
I went to the dentist recently and they required me to open a link in a text message they sent me to digitally 'sign' their paperwork. Without a smartphone I would have no way to do it. Yes, our society today expects you to have a smartphone.
anenefan 4y ago
Yes the idea a number of business have that everyone has a smart phone and can install an app ... or they have decent internet in the first place, I find maddening, not for the resulting situation but for the picture of what sad standards must exist, either the big wigs are deaf to the developers, or they've hired in technical people who are one trick ponies / low over skill set. I have a simple rule: If the business doesn't have a functioning web site, why should I trust some fly by night app, sorry, no can do. Turning off (or more quietly breaking them) non data phone access services won't work on me either. After being given a few years ago an old, pre google raising its ugly head samsung, which I loved, I went on to purchase four more cheap phones on sale, the last two were merely to install apps that needed a much newer OS. My experience with the newer and cheaper phones were not the best. The last being damn right nasty with poor ability to properly clean up the phone's limited amount of storage, and permissions set that no app (I use) could write to the sd card. Sadly if that was the only small issue I might have considered it worthwhile to root the device. Reset ultimately freed up the internal storage space and it's now an excellent hotspot device and phone ... if I think to change the settings back to accept calls.
stubish 4y ago
As the younger generations stop rolling their eyes at 'old people' and become 'old people' themselves, I think the problem will be corrected. Requiring smart phone apps is discriminatory, unsuitable for for many people due to an array of disabilities. Some of which, like worsening eyesight, will happen to all of us given time. Supporting these people are one reason why we won't get beyond SMS based two factor authentication for the foreseeable future.
impendia 4y ago
> It's hard to be looked at as 'the person complicating things' Recently I caved and bought a smartphone, but I remember a time before that when some friends and I went to a bar. Someone paid the bill and asked everyone to Venmo him their share. Lacking any immediate way to do that, I reached into my wallet and handed him some cash. He looked a bit perplexed. "Oh, don't worry about it."
epolanski 4y ago
I think you can have a smartphone for those things and a dumb phone for the rest.
carlmr 4y ago
>or reading a menu. I have a smartphone and this annoys me to no end. No I don't want to zoom through your menu in some PDF format which doesn't render nicely on my phone. I have left restaurants because of this, and told them why.
andrew-dc 4y ago
Oh, bonus annoyance for Parents: Let's say you have kids and you want to use any of the family settings (e.g. Screen Time) Apple, Google, etc provide for an iPad or Chromebook: All app based. I happen to use an old iPad just as an admin panel for these cases, but the almost complete lack of any desktop or web interface is stupidly depressing.

titanomachy 4y ago

Calling a smartphone a "luxury item" if you live in America (or similar) is a bit disingenuous. Anything that has 85% market penetration is by definition not a luxury item. In some countries this could be an accurate description, though. And I agree with the overall sentiment, I would like it to be easier to get through my day without using a smartphone.

lastofthemojito 4y ago
Yeah, even as a smartphone owner, I find it annoying how some places just assume you're able (and willing!) to install some arbitrary app to do business with them, etc. That being said, it really doesn't have to be all that expensive. Sure, if you buy the newest iPhone every year and get a high-end Verizon plan, that'll cost some dough. But you can get a used or low-end smartphone and a cheap plan - they're out there: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-cheap-cell-phone-plans,review-4504.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-cheap-cell-phone-plans,rev...
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > Yeah, even as a smartphone owner, I find it annoying how some places just assume you're able (and willing!) to install some arbitrary app to do business with them, etc. Especially when they're a broken mess. This summer I visited LA, and at one restaurant they had a QR-code menu. They didn't require installing any app, it just sent you to some web page. I had good service (outside, LTE, full bars) but it was impossible for me to see the menu. The thing would never load. Sometimes it would somewhat load, but when scrolling and trying to pick things (it was an ungodly mess of drop-down lists) it would disappear again. > But you can get a used or low-end smartphone and a cheap plan The above was on an iPhone 7, which I admit is "old" (but it is up-to-date software wise). So, I wonder what you mean by "cheap low-end phone", and how that would compare with mine. Especially since we have some low-end Android phones at work, which are "current models". And the scrolling in the settings app, for example, feels much less smooth than on my geriatric phone. They just lag all the time. My phone basically never does that, which is the reason I'm not particularly looking to get a new one. This was the first time I couldn't have my phone do what I needed. The site worked well-enough on my friend's 11 pro.
throwaway4aday 4y ago
It adheres to the definition. The problem with the phrasing is that nearly all people in America and many other countries are inundated with luxury items to the point where we view them as basic necessities. That doesn't make them necessities, they are still lifestyle choices that while more affordable than ever are still superfluous to our existence. In other words, we're all spoiled brats ;)
- chefkoch 4y ago
  At least in Germany you get a Smartphone for way less than 100€ and a call + SMS + 4GB data flat for 5€. If that is luxury what is going to the cinema for 20€ (movie and popcorn) for 2 hours?
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    5 EUR per month for service? That is crazy cheap in a highly developed country. Which provider?
    - cyxxon 4y ago
      You don't get that consistently. You can go to check24.de and get their sim.de offer for 5gb data and sms/telephone flat, but that's a limited time deal. So technically yes, but in general you are more in the 8-10€ ballpark for this kind of offering.
      - chefkoch 4y ago
        winsim.de gets you this all the time. They just call it temporary like these permanent going out of business sales. I get 15gb for 10€ from them.
    - domh 4y ago
      In the UK I get a sim-only deal with unlimited calls and 4GB of data for £6 with Smarty: https://smarty.co.uk/plans/4gb-data https://smarty.co.uk/plans/4gb-data Recently moved and didn't have internet service setup yet. I got an unlimited data bundle from them for £17 for 30 days. Felt like a pretty good deal, and it didn't get throttled at all. Latency was a slight issue with zoom calls though.
throwaway2037 4y ago
No kidding. India has GDP per capita less than 2.500 USD and mobile phones are ubiquitous -- old, poor, kids, whatever. Plus service is dirt cheap. Reliance JioPhone is insanely cheap: https://www.jio.com/en-in/jiophone https://www.jio.com/en-in/jiophone

parker_mountain 4y ago

> luxury item (and an expensive monthly service bill) Before applying any subsidies for low income people, you can get a perfectly usable smartphone for under $40 and unlimited data cell service (slow but usable for basic tasks) for $10/month. An iPhone, with service, can be had for a total of under $50/month. These aren't luxury items anymore.

ekianjo 4y ago
They should not be required for anything either.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Neither should a bank account, or a car, or weather-appropriate clothes, but they can be pretty damn handy.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Nice reply. I laughed. At the office, when I am asked "Do you really need it?" I sometimes answer: "I don't _need_ my left leg, but I really like it." Same for toilet paper in the stalls.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Bad analogies are bad analogies. You can still have two systems in parallel instead of requiring a single tool to do the job.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      Bad arguments are bad arguments. Cash and bank accounts are two systems in parallel. Cars and public transport (or bicycles, or walking) are systems in parallel. Good clothing and poor clothing are systems in parallel. A physical driver license and a digital driver license are systems in parallel. Banking/services on a mobile phone and visiting a physical store are systems in parallel. Where is the bad analogy?

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-us-hate-being-forced-to-install-apps-to-do-business-costing-brands-billions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-u...

wildrhythms 4y ago

I went to the dentist recently and they required me to open a link in a text message they sent me to digitally 'sign' their paperwork. Without a smartphone I would have no way to do it. Yes, our society today expects you to have a smartphone.

anenefan 4y ago

Yes the idea a number of business have that everyone has a smart phone and can install an app ... or they have decent internet in the first place, I find maddening, not for the resulting situation but for the picture of what sad standards must exist, either the big wigs are deaf to the developers, or they've hired in technical people who are one trick ponies / low over skill set. I have a simple rule: If the business doesn't have a functioning web site, why should I trust some fly by night app, sorry, no can do. Turning off (or more quietly breaking them) non data phone access services won't work on me either. After being given a few years ago an old, pre google raising its ugly head samsung, which I loved, I went on to purchase four more cheap phones on sale, the last two were merely to install apps that needed a much newer OS. My experience with the newer and cheaper phones were not the best. The last being damn right nasty with poor ability to properly clean up the phone's limited amount of storage, and permissions set that no app (I use) could write to the sd card. Sadly if that was the only small issue I might have considered it worthwhile to root the device. Reset ultimately freed up the internal storage space and it's now an excellent hotspot device and phone ... if I think to change the settings back to accept calls.

stubish 4y ago

As the younger generations stop rolling their eyes at 'old people' and become 'old people' themselves, I think the problem will be corrected. Requiring smart phone apps is discriminatory, unsuitable for for many people due to an array of disabilities. Some of which, like worsening eyesight, will happen to all of us given time. Supporting these people are one reason why we won't get beyond SMS based two factor authentication for the foreseeable future.

impendia 4y ago

> It's hard to be looked at as 'the person complicating things' Recently I caved and bought a smartphone, but I remember a time before that when some friends and I went to a bar. Someone paid the bill and asked everyone to Venmo him their share. Lacking any immediate way to do that, I reached into my wallet and handed him some cash. He looked a bit perplexed. "Oh, don't worry about it."

epolanski 4y ago

I think you can have a smartphone for those things and a dumb phone for the rest.

carlmr 4y ago

>or reading a menu. I have a smartphone and this annoys me to no end. No I don't want to zoom through your menu in some PDF format which doesn't render nicely on my phone. I have left restaurants because of this, and told them why.

andrew-dc 4y ago

Oh, bonus annoyance for Parents: Let's say you have kids and you want to use any of the family settings (e.g. Screen Time) Apple, Google, etc provide for an iPad or Chromebook: All app based. I happen to use an old iPad just as an admin panel for these cases, but the almost complete lack of any desktop or web interface is stupidly depressing.