2 ms·

Honestly, it probably doesn't even need to be said due to how obvious it is. If we (the "west") loses Japan, we've essentially waived our claims to South Korea

Honestly, it probably doesn't even need to be said due to how obvious it is. If we (the "west") loses Japan, we've essentially waived our claims to South Korea as well. We'll have lost legitimacy and lost our word to protect (Taiwan) what is a epicenter of global technological development (semiconductors). Japan and South Korea (and to a lesser, but significant extent, AUS&NZ) will look at the west's inability to protect Taiwan, and say "well, looks like we'd better buddy up to China, because they're the big dogs now". And that will be that. We'd better fucking help Taiwan.

rayiner 4y ago
Or we could just let Asian relational politics run it’s course.
- mcphage 4y ago
  Whose interests would that benefit?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Asians?
    - arroz 4y ago
      What asians?
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      I think you'll have to be more specific than that. If your hangup is that this is yet another instance of Westerners attempting to decide the fate of a people on the otherside of the planet from them, I think we can grant that there isn't a stellar track record there. Still, ideal scenarios of perfect sovereignty don't exist in the real world and I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect e.g. Japan to ask for continued American involvement.
    - kbelder 4y ago
      Well, some of them.
    - loudmax 4y ago
      It would benefit autocratic dictatorial Asians certainly, at the expense of Asian democracies. Those of us who believe in liberal democracy will need to stand up for it. We can no longer take it for granted, even at home.
    - mcphage 4y ago
      What, like, all of them? Just across the board great outcomes for everyone in Asia?
- HWR_14 4y ago
  I have no idea what you are advocating. Chinese people are geographically closer and ethnically more similar to Japanese people than the US population as a whole, and therefore should be given some kind of weird consideration in Japanese desires for US military bases?
manimino 4y ago
It's hard to remember now, but the US's war on Iraq was declared with widespread popular support. Many people today seem to feel that Taiwan and Ukraine are interests worth using military force to defend. I do wonder how well that support would hold up if either of those potential wars becomes reality.
- NickC25 4y ago
  I remember it clearly. The support was huge...only a fringe few who were labeled crazy had the audacity to say "wait, so a bunch of Saudi dudes who were trained in Afghanistan by the CIA to fight the Russians, and funded by Saudi royals ended up attacking us, and as a result we're going to invade Iraq? How does that make any sense?" Yet here we are....
  - SkyMarshal 4y ago
    I remember it too, but my memory is that a large portion of the US population opposed it, just not a majority. The majority supported it. Mainstream media was mostly on board, in manufacturing consent mode, though they had some problems navigating Colin Powell's less than convincing presentation at the UN on supposed Iraqi WMD, but they succeeded anyway.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      I'd say the majority of the voting public was pretty uninformed at the time about what was what regarding anything in the middle east. They were trusting that other people knew what they were talking about. Most of the reason most people know anything about it now is because it has been discussed at length as a result of the mistake.
      - hungryforcodes 4y ago
        Uninformed in this case really means "mislead".
    - bumby 4y ago
edgyquant 4y ago
We should and will help Taiwan. B it NZ/AUS are a different ballgame: they are not the maritime equivalent of on the border with China.
- NickC25 4y ago
  they are a different ballgame but the song remains the same in that AUS's largest trading partner is China and we've seen China exert a ton of soft power in AUS in many ways. They'll march to China's tune eventually if we don't actively keep China in check - because they'll have no choice in the matter.
  - foogazi 4y ago
    You really they’ll let 5eyes/UKUSA alliance break up ?
  - fleddr 4y ago
    The EU's largest trading partner is China. For the US, China is the 3rd largest trading partner with a mere 10 billion difference from being the largest trading partner. We all sing to the tune of China, and we fully enabled that. We want cheap garbage without difficult questions about human rights and the environment. This very movement has eroded western society.
mrtksn 4y ago
Considering the enormous population of the countries in that part of the world, for how long the west could claim influence on them anyway? The center for technological advancements have already shifted to that region too. The west still holds as a cultural powerhouse but as the technology enables cheap production and distribution of media, that is also bound to vanish. Overall a fairer world where westerners work as hard as the asians is the most likely scenario IMHO. Flipping burgers in NYC should end up with similar compensation as flipping burgers in Shanghai. Could be painful but at the end it can be beneficial for the west too. Since a while we live in a world where engineers who deal with atoms are poorly compensated in the west because everything is made in China and our best and brightest spend their lives in the advertisement and gambling business disguised as tech and finance. That part of the world becoming an equal power to the west can be beneficial on the long run.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  > Considering the enormous population of the countries in that part of the world, for how long the west could claim influence on them anyway? As long as China is aggressive with its neighbors (e.g. Vietnam), they automatically fall into being friendly with the west and in to the west's sphere of influence. But if Taiwan is conquered by the mainland, all bets are off. There would basically be no counter-balance to China in Asia.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  The value of flipping burgers is dependent on the productivity of who you are feeding. In an ideal world, it would be worth about the same everywhere, but it will take many years until the GDP per capita is uniform everywhere. Especially now that China’s population and its workforce has started to decline.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    The point is that it's a positive progress to have China stepping up it's game, assuming they don't turn into some kind of aggressive state. Surely their demographics is a mess but quite frankly only the US has good demographics in the west. My concern is that the western burger flippers might have been overcompensated due to artificially inflated productivity in some sectors and once that's over the west might find that they can't match the productivity in China due to destruction of some industries leading undercompensation and as a result, severe lack of talent and know how in those.

rayiner 4y ago

Or we could just let Asian relational politics run it’s course.

mcphage 4y ago
Whose interests would that benefit?
- rayiner 4y ago
  Asians?
  - arroz 4y ago
    What asians?
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    I think you'll have to be more specific than that. If your hangup is that this is yet another instance of Westerners attempting to decide the fate of a people on the otherside of the planet from them, I think we can grant that there isn't a stellar track record there. Still, ideal scenarios of perfect sovereignty don't exist in the real world and I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect e.g. Japan to ask for continued American involvement.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    Well, some of them.
  - loudmax 4y ago
    It would benefit autocratic dictatorial Asians certainly, at the expense of Asian democracies. Those of us who believe in liberal democracy will need to stand up for it. We can no longer take it for granted, even at home.
  - mcphage 4y ago
    What, like, all of them? Just across the board great outcomes for everyone in Asia?
HWR_14 4y ago
I have no idea what you are advocating. Chinese people are geographically closer and ethnically more similar to Japanese people than the US population as a whole, and therefore should be given some kind of weird consideration in Japanese desires for US military bases?

manimino 4y ago

It's hard to remember now, but the US's war on Iraq was declared with widespread popular support. Many people today seem to feel that Taiwan and Ukraine are interests worth using military force to defend. I do wonder how well that support would hold up if either of those potential wars becomes reality.

NickC25 4y ago
I remember it clearly. The support was huge...only a fringe few who were labeled crazy had the audacity to say "wait, so a bunch of Saudi dudes who were trained in Afghanistan by the CIA to fight the Russians, and funded by Saudi royals ended up attacking us, and as a result we're going to invade Iraq? How does that make any sense?" Yet here we are....
- SkyMarshal 4y ago
  I remember it too, but my memory is that a large portion of the US population opposed it, just not a majority. The majority supported it. Mainstream media was mostly on board, in manufacturing consent mode, though they had some problems navigating Colin Powell's less than convincing presentation at the UN on supposed Iraqi WMD, but they succeeded anyway.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    I'd say the majority of the voting public was pretty uninformed at the time about what was what regarding anything in the middle east. They were trusting that other people knew what they were talking about. Most of the reason most people know anything about it now is because it has been discussed at length as a result of the mistake.
    - hungryforcodes 4y ago
      Uninformed in this case really means "mislead".
  - bumby 4y ago

edgyquant 4y ago

We should and will help Taiwan. B it NZ/AUS are a different ballgame: they are not the maritime equivalent of on the border with China.

NickC25 4y ago
they are a different ballgame but the song remains the same in that AUS's largest trading partner is China and we've seen China exert a ton of soft power in AUS in many ways. They'll march to China's tune eventually if we don't actively keep China in check - because they'll have no choice in the matter.
- foogazi 4y ago
  You really they’ll let 5eyes/UKUSA alliance break up ?
- fleddr 4y ago
  The EU's largest trading partner is China. For the US, China is the 3rd largest trading partner with a mere 10 billion difference from being the largest trading partner. We all sing to the tune of China, and we fully enabled that. We want cheap garbage without difficult questions about human rights and the environment. This very movement has eroded western society.

mrtksn 4y ago

Considering the enormous population of the countries in that part of the world, for how long the west could claim influence on them anyway? The center for technological advancements have already shifted to that region too. The west still holds as a cultural powerhouse but as the technology enables cheap production and distribution of media, that is also bound to vanish. Overall a fairer world where westerners work as hard as the asians is the most likely scenario IMHO. Flipping burgers in NYC should end up with similar compensation as flipping burgers in Shanghai. Could be painful but at the end it can be beneficial for the west too. Since a while we live in a world where engineers who deal with atoms are poorly compensated in the west because everything is made in China and our best and brightest spend their lives in the advertisement and gambling business disguised as tech and finance. That part of the world becoming an equal power to the west can be beneficial on the long run.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> Considering the enormous population of the countries in that part of the world, for how long the west could claim influence on them anyway? As long as China is aggressive with its neighbors (e.g. Vietnam), they automatically fall into being friendly with the west and in to the west's sphere of influence. But if Taiwan is conquered by the mainland, all bets are off. There would basically be no counter-balance to China in Asia.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
The value of flipping burgers is dependent on the productivity of who you are feeding. In an ideal world, it would be worth about the same everywhere, but it will take many years until the GDP per capita is uniform everywhere. Especially now that China’s population and its workforce has started to decline.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  The point is that it's a positive progress to have China stepping up it's game, assuming they don't turn into some kind of aggressive state. Surely their demographics is a mess but quite frankly only the US has good demographics in the west. My concern is that the western burger flippers might have been overcompensated due to artificially inflated productivity in some sectors and once that's over the west might find that they can't match the productivity in China due to destruction of some industries leading undercompensation and as a result, severe lack of talent and know how in those.