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Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us

Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us, as long as it works for them. The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't). Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.
- smalltalkcoder 4y ago
  You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holders-to-double-by-2020-fueling-overseas-travel-IbE4RFs7QY/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-ordinary-passports-issued/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now? But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.
    - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
      Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).
        smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        I assume you know that the majority of Hong Kong citizens live in poverty. They can barely afford a roof over their heads, much less international travel. But perhaps you've never experienced poverty, so you may not know.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Although there are a lot of poor people in HK, it isn't true that most of them live in poverty: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong-s-poorest-face-a-combined-housing-and-climate-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong... 1.6 million out of 7.3 million people is definitely serious, but hardly a majority. I've been to the SAR a few times, and don't think it is especially poor, especially when compared to even China's richest city like Shanghai. As for my own personal experiences, please don't make assumptions like that. You have no idea what I've been through in my life, and it is rather not relevant to this discussion.
        smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        Perhaps I overstated the poverty in HK. But my point was that many people there cannot afford to travel. They live paycheck to paycheck; they have very little in the way of savings. I know people in HK, including family. Most people in HK are not well-off. When you add these to the people who are living in poverty, that doesn't leave for a lot of travelers.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  In 2019, there were about 150 million outbound tourists from China (and I think this means mainland China, specifically, but I don't know if multiple trips by the same person count multiple times).[0] That's up from 100 million in 2013, so the number was rapidly increasing before the pandemic (and it will probably begin rapidly increasing again). Regardless, the point stands that at the moment, there's no mass rush to escape China. Most people in China think life is getting better year for year, and are fairly optimistic about the future of the country. It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media. 0. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-outbound-tourist-number/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-...
  - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
    > It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media. It's not liberal democracy. It's not democracy as defined in the West. It's the Chinese model of democracy, or what is known as "whole-process people's democracy." And it works for the Chinese. That's the big takeaway. That's why the Chinese regard China as the most democratic nation in the world, according to Latana's Democracy Perception Index 2022.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      It's just as silly to buy into the Chinese government's own propaganda about "whole process democracy" as it is to buy into Western fear propaganda about China.
      - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        Why is whole-process people's democracy silly? Just because you don't believe in it? That's what the author meant by Western arrogance. We in the West think we are entitled to define what is and isn't democracy. On what basis? Because we dominate the world politically?
        4y ago

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't). Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.

smalltalkcoder 4y ago
You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holders-to-double-by-2020-fueling-overseas-travel-IbE4RFs7QY/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-ordinary-passports-issued/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now? But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.
  - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
    Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).
      - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        I assume you know that the majority of Hong Kong citizens live in poverty. They can barely afford a roof over their heads, much less international travel. But perhaps you've never experienced poverty, so you may not know.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Although there are a lot of poor people in HK, it isn't true that most of them live in poverty: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong-s-poorest-face-a-combined-housing-and-climate-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong... 1.6 million out of 7.3 million people is definitely serious, but hardly a majority. I've been to the SAR a few times, and don't think it is especially poor, especially when compared to even China's richest city like Shanghai. As for my own personal experiences, please don't make assumptions like that. You have no idea what I've been through in my life, and it is rather not relevant to this discussion.
        smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        Perhaps I overstated the poverty in HK. But my point was that many people there cannot afford to travel. They live paycheck to paycheck; they have very little in the way of savings. I know people in HK, including family. Most people in HK are not well-off. When you add these to the people who are living in poverty, that doesn't leave for a lot of travelers.
DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
In 2019, there were about 150 million outbound tourists from China (and I think this means mainland China, specifically, but I don't know if multiple trips by the same person count multiple times).[0] That's up from 100 million in 2013, so the number was rapidly increasing before the pandemic (and it will probably begin rapidly increasing again). Regardless, the point stands that at the moment, there's no mass rush to escape China. Most people in China think life is getting better year for year, and are fairly optimistic about the future of the country. It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media. 0. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-outbound-tourist-number/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-...
- smalltalkcoder 4y ago
  > It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media. It's not liberal democracy. It's not democracy as defined in the West. It's the Chinese model of democracy, or what is known as "whole-process people's democracy." And it works for the Chinese. That's the big takeaway. That's why the Chinese regard China as the most democratic nation in the world, according to Latana's Democracy Perception Index 2022.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    It's just as silly to buy into the Chinese government's own propaganda about "whole process democracy" as it is to buy into Western fear propaganda about China.
    - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
      Why is whole-process people's democracy silly? Just because you don't believe in it? That's what the author meant by Western arrogance. We in the West think we are entitled to define what is and isn't democracy. On what basis? Because we dominate the world politically?
      - 4y ago