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Exactly! The Chinese do not pretend they have Western liberal democracy, but the democratic system they do have works for them. Moreover, they've seen how well

Exactly! The Chinese do not pretend they have Western liberal democracy, but the democratic system they do have works for them. Moreover, they've seen how well liberal democracy works for USA, UK, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Hungary, and so on, and they aren't fooled. The question is: why are we?

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.
- smalltalkcoder 4y ago
  Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us, as long as it works for them. The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't). Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.
    - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
      You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holders-to-double-by-2020-fueling-overseas-travel-IbE4RFs7QY/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-ordinary-passports-issued/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now? But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.
        smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).
- smalltalkcoder 4y ago
  And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    > Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I've had people in China asked if our country has been destroyed by the pandemic, inflation, energy shortages, BLM protests, etc...and well my answer is "no, you're just being lied to by CCTV." It isn't like the misinformation goes both ways.
    - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
      True, but my point is that no population has a consensus. Whether you live in China or the West, there are people who know the truth and people who don't know the truth. There are people who are well-informed and people who are ignorant.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.

smalltalkcoder 4y ago
Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us, as long as it works for them. The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't). Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.
  - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
    You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holders-to-double-by-2020-fueling-overseas-travel-IbE4RFs7QY/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-ordinary-passports-issued/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now? But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.
      - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
        Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).
smalltalkcoder 4y ago
And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  > Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I've had people in China asked if our country has been destroyed by the pandemic, inflation, energy shortages, BLM protests, etc...and well my answer is "no, you're just being lied to by CCTV." It isn't like the misinformation goes both ways.
  - smalltalkcoder 4y ago
    True, but my point is that no population has a consensus. Whether you live in China or the West, there are people who know the truth and people who don't know the truth. There are people who are well-informed and people who are ignorant.