5 ms·

Propane market is a good analogy for solar and wind energy; lots of it, but hard to stockpile, and matching the producers to the consumers seems a very ineffici

by VLM 4y ago

Propane market is a good analogy for solar and wind energy; lots of it, but hard to stockpile, and matching the producers to the consumers seems a very inefficient market with lots of economic and energy losses. Electricity will be like propane, soon.

korroziya 4y ago
I respectfully disagree. Propane (and natgas for that matter) while harder to store than coal or crude, is a hell of a lot easier to store than electricity from wind/solar. Propane tanks can be picked up, carried and used regardless of whether the sun shines or the wind blows, hence why renewables are "intermittent" and gas-fired electricity is not.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  Another critical difference: we can store propane inside of steel and/or concrete containers. There are a few "steel and concrete" containers that can hold electricity (ex: Pumped Hydro), but the bulk of our technology is in Li-ion / rarer metals. Steel and Concrete are two of the cheapest materials we have. Anything that uses it (rather than more expensive stuff) is strictly an advantage.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    I don't quite understand your point. Electricity is commonly produced by carbon neutral processes. Propane is (approximately) never. So to compare steel+concrete to batteries feels like a non sequitur to me.
    - p1mrx 4y ago
      It is possible to make renewable methanol, convert it into dimethyl ether, and then store/use it in a manner similar to propane: https://www.aboutdme.org/aboutdme/files/cclibraryfiles/filename/000000004180/rDME_Fact_Sheet_General.pdf https://www.aboutdme.org/aboutdme/files/cclibraryfiles/filen... I could imagine a future where we use heat pumps with propane/rDME backup for power outages or extreme cold weather events, assuming that it won't be profitable to maintain residential natural gas for infrequent use.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      There's a number of biofuels that emulate fossil fuels. Ex: Ethanol emulates Gasoline. Synthetic bio-propane seems to be available too. If we are to be discussing bio-propane vs batteries, the storage benefits are key.
      - akiselev 4y ago
        Most of the waste from biofuel production [1] is used as animal feed, so double green! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillers_grains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillers_grains
        dragontamer 4y ago
        Ehhh, I'm actually kind of bearish on grains as bio-fuel. I'd like to see the switchgrass biofuel take off. A surprising amount of emissions in the USA (and Brazil) are due to deforestation associated with turning forests into farmland. That's largely mitigated by using "natural plants", like switchgrass instead of farm crops. I mean, its all "solar power into fuel", which is great. But its also important to recognize that some (ie: switchgrass based biofuel) are better than others (ex: grain or corn based biofuel).
- toast0 4y ago
  Adding on, propane is pretty easy to stockpile as a consumer. Here's my anecdote: I've got two 250 gallon propane tanks in my yard. One goes to my whole house generator which can go several days if needed; the other goes to the stove, water heater, and fireplace; this lasts several months, but not a whole year. After a few years experience, the best plan seems to be fill in september/october and again when prices come down in the spring. I'd probably try to get a bigger tank or a second tank for the house if we ever need to do meaningful work on the system, so we can fill once a year in the summer. Combining the two tanks I have now would probably be too expensive, and a dedicated supply for the generator seems good operationaly. The previous owner leased the tanks, and we kept going with that; it's probably better to own them as then you can get better fuel pricing.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Grid electricity? A heat pump might buy you enough heat (at a better price than propane) during the shoulder seasons to get by on 1 fill. If you’re off the grid, forget that :)
    - toast0 4y ago
      Yes, I've got grid electricity, at least 360 days a year. I do have and use heat pumps for heating the house; the fireplace is mostly decorative (it is properly setup to be effective at heating the room it's in, but it needs electricity to function and my generator can run the heat pumps, but maybe if the generator fuel got low). That's not going to replace my stove though. Maybe the water heater. (Oh and the clothes dryer, forgot about that one... but I've not seen good things about heat pump clothes dryers)
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Why not buy futures? Buy now, deliver later?
    - toast0 4y ago
      I'm locked into deliveries by the owner of the tanks, and they don't offer that, AFAIK.
- mullingitover 4y ago
  Give it time. ESS is making huge iron-based flow batteries that fit in a 40 foot shipping container[1], have a 25 year operating life, and can be stacked up at a solar/wind site like lego blocks to turn the intermittent generation into steady supply. There's other stuff like this in development. [1] https://essinc.com/energy-warehouse/ https://essinc.com/energy-warehouse/
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    That website doesn't mention cost, but just the shipping container that houses the battery is going to cost much more than an equivalent propane tank. The battery is quoted at 400kwh, which is 1,440 MJ of energy. That is equivalent to 30KG of propane. Three little tanks like this[1] has the same energy as your massive battery. So yeah, propane is easier to store. [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bernzomatic-20-Pound-Refillable-Propane-Tank/39923245 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bernzomatic-20-Pound-Refillable-P...
    - mullingitover 4y ago
      I think these batteries would be used on the site of infra-scale renewables generation, a one-time installation, not something you'd store at your home. And there are already shipping container batteries that store 1MHW for $775k[1]. [1] https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/1mwh-energy-storage-banks-in-40ft-containers https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/1mwh-energy-storage-...
      - dahfizz 4y ago
        The point is that batteries are many orders of magnitude off in terms of cost, weight, size compared to fossil fuel storage. > Electricity will be like propane, soon. Is not true for any reasonable definition of "soon". Our efforts would be better spent optimizing the grid for variable load rather than trying to solve storage. Actual grid scale storage will be unsolvable for decades.
  - korroziya 4y ago
    >give it time EIA predicts renewables will help fossil fuels make up half of the US' power generation in another 27 years.
- adolph 4y ago
  Future scenario might be Wind/solar powered CO2, H2O conversion to methane or beyond to methanol for storage and bulk transfer.
Zach_the_Lizard 4y ago
It's pretty common in rural areas to have buried propane tanks that are refilled by trucks. Depending on the climate and size of the tank, these might last all winter. If you call that stockpiling, it's pretty easy, I'd say. Much harder is the pretty capital intensive residential natural gas line.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  We would also sometimes buy our propane for future delivery months ahead of time.
- xattt 4y ago
  > It's pretty common in rural areas to have buried propane tanks that are refilled by trucks. Prince Edward Island is rural and has no natural gas infrastructure. It’s either fuel oil (diesel without road taxes applied) or propane for fossil fuel-based heating. Residential propane tanks are above-ground barrels that are ~5 feet tall on concrete pads with trucks coming so often. Many of the remote rural folks end up getting propane stoves in order to be able to cook when power is out.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    No wood pellet stoves? Should be cheaper, but a bit more hands-on and needs electricity.
  - landemva 4y ago
    The jet sizing is different for propane / nat gas. Other than that simple change, stoves and furnaces and water heaters operate the same.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Most water heaters and furnaces don't have replaceable jets. In theory you are correct, but in practice you buy for the fuel you have. Stoves and dryers generally have replaceable jets. I don't know why this is, just that it is.

by VLM 4y ago

korroziya 4y ago

I respectfully disagree. Propane (and natgas for that matter) while harder to store than coal or crude, is a hell of a lot easier to store than electricity from wind/solar. Propane tanks can be picked up, carried and used regardless of whether the sun shines or the wind blows, hence why renewables are "intermittent" and gas-fired electricity is not.

dragontamer 4y ago
Another critical difference: we can store propane inside of steel and/or concrete containers. There are a few "steel and concrete" containers that can hold electricity (ex: Pumped Hydro), but the bulk of our technology is in Li-ion / rarer metals. Steel and Concrete are two of the cheapest materials we have. Anything that uses it (rather than more expensive stuff) is strictly an advantage.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  I don't quite understand your point. Electricity is commonly produced by carbon neutral processes. Propane is (approximately) never. So to compare steel+concrete to batteries feels like a non sequitur to me.
  - p1mrx 4y ago
    It is possible to make renewable methanol, convert it into dimethyl ether, and then store/use it in a manner similar to propane: https://www.aboutdme.org/aboutdme/files/cclibraryfiles/filename/000000004180/rDME_Fact_Sheet_General.pdf https://www.aboutdme.org/aboutdme/files/cclibraryfiles/filen... I could imagine a future where we use heat pumps with propane/rDME backup for power outages or extreme cold weather events, assuming that it won't be profitable to maintain residential natural gas for infrequent use.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    There's a number of biofuels that emulate fossil fuels. Ex: Ethanol emulates Gasoline. Synthetic bio-propane seems to be available too. If we are to be discussing bio-propane vs batteries, the storage benefits are key.
    - akiselev 4y ago
      Most of the waste from biofuel production [1] is used as animal feed, so double green! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillers_grains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillers_grains
      - dragontamer 4y ago
        Ehhh, I'm actually kind of bearish on grains as bio-fuel. I'd like to see the switchgrass biofuel take off. A surprising amount of emissions in the USA (and Brazil) are due to deforestation associated with turning forests into farmland. That's largely mitigated by using "natural plants", like switchgrass instead of farm crops. I mean, its all "solar power into fuel", which is great. But its also important to recognize that some (ie: switchgrass based biofuel) are better than others (ex: grain or corn based biofuel).
toast0 4y ago
Adding on, propane is pretty easy to stockpile as a consumer. Here's my anecdote: I've got two 250 gallon propane tanks in my yard. One goes to my whole house generator which can go several days if needed; the other goes to the stove, water heater, and fireplace; this lasts several months, but not a whole year. After a few years experience, the best plan seems to be fill in september/october and again when prices come down in the spring. I'd probably try to get a bigger tank or a second tank for the house if we ever need to do meaningful work on the system, so we can fill once a year in the summer. Combining the two tanks I have now would probably be too expensive, and a dedicated supply for the generator seems good operationaly. The previous owner leased the tanks, and we kept going with that; it's probably better to own them as then you can get better fuel pricing.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Grid electricity? A heat pump might buy you enough heat (at a better price than propane) during the shoulder seasons to get by on 1 fill. If you’re off the grid, forget that :)
  - toast0 4y ago
    Yes, I've got grid electricity, at least 360 days a year. I do have and use heat pumps for heating the house; the fireplace is mostly decorative (it is properly setup to be effective at heating the room it's in, but it needs electricity to function and my generator can run the heat pumps, but maybe if the generator fuel got low). That's not going to replace my stove though. Maybe the water heater. (Oh and the clothes dryer, forgot about that one... but I've not seen good things about heat pump clothes dryers)
- latchkey 4y ago
  Why not buy futures? Buy now, deliver later?
  - toast0 4y ago
    I'm locked into deliveries by the owner of the tanks, and they don't offer that, AFAIK.
mullingitover 4y ago
Give it time. ESS is making huge iron-based flow batteries that fit in a 40 foot shipping container[1], have a 25 year operating life, and can be stacked up at a solar/wind site like lego blocks to turn the intermittent generation into steady supply. There's other stuff like this in development. [1] https://essinc.com/energy-warehouse/ https://essinc.com/energy-warehouse/
- dahfizz 4y ago
  That website doesn't mention cost, but just the shipping container that houses the battery is going to cost much more than an equivalent propane tank. The battery is quoted at 400kwh, which is 1,440 MJ of energy. That is equivalent to 30KG of propane. Three little tanks like this[1] has the same energy as your massive battery. So yeah, propane is easier to store. [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bernzomatic-20-Pound-Refillable-Propane-Tank/39923245 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bernzomatic-20-Pound-Refillable-P...
  - mullingitover 4y ago
    I think these batteries would be used on the site of infra-scale renewables generation, a one-time installation, not something you'd store at your home. And there are already shipping container batteries that store 1MHW for $775k[1]. [1] https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/1mwh-energy-storage-banks-in-40ft-containers https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/1mwh-energy-storage-...
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      The point is that batteries are many orders of magnitude off in terms of cost, weight, size compared to fossil fuel storage. > Electricity will be like propane, soon. Is not true for any reasonable definition of "soon". Our efforts would be better spent optimizing the grid for variable load rather than trying to solve storage. Actual grid scale storage will be unsolvable for decades.
- korroziya 4y ago
  >give it time EIA predicts renewables will help fossil fuels make up half of the US' power generation in another 27 years.
adolph 4y ago
Future scenario might be Wind/solar powered CO2, H2O conversion to methane or beyond to methanol for storage and bulk transfer.

Zach_the_Lizard 4y ago

It's pretty common in rural areas to have buried propane tanks that are refilled by trucks. Depending on the climate and size of the tank, these might last all winter. If you call that stockpiling, it's pretty easy, I'd say. Much harder is the pretty capital intensive residential natural gas line.

colechristensen 4y ago
We would also sometimes buy our propane for future delivery months ahead of time.
xattt 4y ago
> It's pretty common in rural areas to have buried propane tanks that are refilled by trucks. Prince Edward Island is rural and has no natural gas infrastructure. It’s either fuel oil (diesel without road taxes applied) or propane for fossil fuel-based heating. Residential propane tanks are above-ground barrels that are ~5 feet tall on concrete pads with trucks coming so often. Many of the remote rural folks end up getting propane stoves in order to be able to cook when power is out.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  No wood pellet stoves? Should be cheaper, but a bit more hands-on and needs electricity.
- landemva 4y ago
  The jet sizing is different for propane / nat gas. Other than that simple change, stoves and furnaces and water heaters operate the same.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Most water heaters and furnaces don't have replaceable jets. In theory you are correct, but in practice you buy for the fuel you have. Stoves and dryers generally have replaceable jets. I don't know why this is, just that it is.