7 ms·

There's also a new Mac Mini, which I found A LOT MORE interesting, given that its keyboard or batteries won't break: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/app

There's also a new Mac Mini, which I found A LOT MORE interesting, given that its keyboard or batteries won't break: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-introduces-new-mac-mini-with-m2-and-m2-pro-more-powerful-capable-and-versatile-than-ever/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-introduces-new-...

moonchrome 4y ago
I was thinking about throwing some last gen parts into an old tower/PSU I have to build a desktop for inlaws since they are stuck on a 10year old hand down laptop. This is a good package at that price (599$) - power consumption is likely nothing, MacOS included in price, small and quiet - will comfortably browse the internet, play videos, etc. for the next 5+ years. I won't be able to repair it out of warranty so that's a bummer- but at such low price and their usage pattern I guess I can live with the risk.
- myself248 4y ago
  Shame I can't buy an M2 Max on an ATX mobo.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and thereafter is a direct result of moving the memory closer to the die. The power efficiency, sure, that's all engineering, but super close and fast memory right next to the CPU is only one step away from AMD's 3D v-cache that has (had) the 5800X3D beating out newer 7000 series AMD chips.
    - kcb 4y ago
      I think the bigger factor is that the 3D v-cache is SRAM, which is why it needs a whole stacked die for just 64mb.
    - ac29 4y ago
      > I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and thereafter is a direct result of moving the memory closer to the die I'm not sure why this Apple marketing point gets repeated so often. The M2 has the same memory support as current Intel chips: 128-bit LPDDR5 6400. Mounting the memory on the same package as the CPU might have some engineering advantages compared to socketed RAM, but it doesnt make the (industry standard) memory any faster.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - cztomsik 4y ago
        IMHO the biggest advantage is the RAM->GPU VRAM pipeline, or at least, that was my experience before - whatever you want to send to the VRAM, it has to be in RAM first, and you have to wait until it gets copied, before you can use that RAM again. With unified memory it should not be necessary anymore (you just mark that part as input for GPU). Same should sort-of apply for iGPUs but I'm not 100% sure. And given that the whole MacOS is built around various GPU-accelerated frameworks, it kind-of matters a lot.
    - Sebb767 4y ago
      ATX is just a formfactor, there's nothing preventing apple from releasing an ATX board with soldered-on memory - this is actually not even that unusual in the µATX formfactor.
  - BirAdam 4y ago
    It would be cool to get the SoC on a socket like the Pentium II was, and then have some NVMe slots, PCIe slots, and more I/O ports. This would also be better for the planet if it was a standard feature of each Macintosh and just the SoC got replaced. Unfortunately, Apple's Macintosh line doesn't work that way. The first Macs were all-in-one designs, the 90s saw some heterogeneity, and then the Macintosh line came back to an all-in-one design (except for the MacPro line and the G4 Cube). Today, the G4 Cube is like something out of an alternate universe. Not only was it upgradable, it was also incredibly easy to "open up".
- randomopining 4y ago
  Is this thing actually faster than a cheap Ryzen build for browsing? Like a 5600g that are super cheap now
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Yes: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5600g https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5600g https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 (same chip as in the cheaper Mini; the Mini has a fan so it should run a _little_ faster there) Though for web browsing both presumably fall solidly under "good enough". If I was signing up for Tech Support for Relatives, though, I'd _definitely_ go with the Mac; you don't want to be getting phonecalls about Windows 12 or whatever in 2027.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Apples M chips are stupid fast at browsing the web because they have some native CPU instructions for JavaScript that x86_64 chips don’t.
    - acdha 4y ago
      They’re fast but that’s not usually why. ARM added some functions which could help with math-limited code: https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architectures-and-processors-blog/posts/armv8-a-architecture-2016-additions https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architecture... Most JavaScript isn’t dependent on that specific a feature for performance, however. In most cases what matters more is that they have great memory performance and handle branch-heavy code well.
    - yurishimo 4y ago
      Assuming you use Safari. For older relatives, probably not a bad assumption, but an important distinction to make nonetheless.
      - acdha 4y ago
        Mozilla also implemented it. I believe Chrome/v8 have as well, but I know there was some work there to avoid accidentally enabling it on older ARM chips which don't have support for it.
- MikusR 4y ago
  185W is nothing? My Haswell desktop with dedicated GPU, ssd and two spinning hard drives maxes at 140W
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    Where are you getting that number ? Just going on M2 MB Air battery lifetime I'd say you're an order of magnitude off. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201897 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201897 Mac mini (M1, 2020) Apple M1 chip, 16GB unified memory, 2TB SSD Power Consumption Idle Max 6.8 W 39 W This is 16GB/2TB model, entry level spec should be even lower.
    - MikusR 4y ago
      https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/ https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/
      - moonchrome 4y ago
        That's sounds like the PSU spec. They could have clocked it significantly higher than laptop for perf but I expect it to be in the M1 Mac mini range power consumption wise.
judge2020 4y ago
The lack of dedicated DisplayPort ports is fairly disappointing to me since their implementation is just "native DisplayPort output over USB‑C" and it doesn't support MST, so you can only do one displayport signal per port, even with a thunderbolt 4 hub with some bidirectional USB-C <-> Displayport cables.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  MST wouldn't be supported even if it had a DisplayPort output. Apple explicitly did not support MST pre-M1 as well.
  - andrewia 4y ago
    Yes, although that's a MacOS restriction, and MST is already used in MacOS to carry multiple streams to a single high-resolution monitor. And as Asahi Linux keeps getting more usable, I hope it can be a viable alternative, so Apple's hardware can be used without MacOS's arbitrary restrictions.
  - acchow 4y ago
    But it worked if you installed Windows instead. So the hardware supports MST
    - ccouzens 4y ago
      The Intel hardware supported MST. It's unclear about their ARM hardware (and the suspicion is not supported from people who've looked into it).
- comboy 4y ago
  Check out DisplayLink. I'm using multiple monitors with M1 macbook air which officially only supports single external display. Works great so far. I agree with your point though.
  - agloeregrets 4y ago
    I used an M1 Air docked with displaylink for about 8 months. 1. The Displaylink software heats the machine lightly in the background, and it just gets worse with resolution. 2. The Adaptor is unreliable and can do some really wonky stuff around dock and undock due to Apple's locked USB policies. 3. The old series of Adaptors do not support 4K60, so if you plan on using it with a 4K display, you need to pony up on costs. Assuming we see more ~$1600 sales on the M1 Pro 14 inch, that is easily $300 more computer than a $1299 M2 macbook pro.
mk89 4y ago
I totally agree with you. They are diversifying their laptop/desktop solutions like crazy. Even a Macbook Air can almost compete with the entry-level version of the Macbook Pro, which is great to be honest. I heard they are exceptionally good. Honestly, 7-900$ for a machine that will not get old very soon is not so bad, especially if you already own a screen (which due to WFH you kind of have to have together with a "decent" keyboard, etc.) Very smart move, honestly.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  "that will not get old very soon" No idea how you can write that with straight fingers.
  - zedpm 4y ago
    I’m still using a 2015 MacBook Pro, and it doesn’t feel slow. I’ve done no repairs or maintenance on it in all that time.
    - ValentineC 4y ago
      I tried the older 14" MacBook Pro for just over a month, and it's a world of difference going back to my late 2013 13" MacBook Pro. I've been holding out for the new one and will be placing an order in a bit. :) The splurge will more than make up for the hours of life I'll save from browsing resource-heavy websites.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      I updated to M1 MBP in 2020 because the 2015 MBP I had previously felt slow, and it got progressively worse with each macOS update.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I was using Blender on a 12 year old iMac until just a few weeks ago. Desktops don't seem to age as quickly as their portable counterparts (they are certainly less fragile).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
SergeAx 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34412671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34412671
ricardobayes 4y ago
I hear you, but in Europe it's around 700€, which also buys a pretty solid windows or linux laptop. If you're not locked in to mac, a comparably priced laptop with intel 12 gen CPU, 16GB RAM and a RTX 3050, which is arguably a lot more versatile machine. I think I would like Mac's more if they weren't so absurdly overpriced (approx. 25%+ over US prices) here in Europe.
- pcardoso 4y ago
  The price difference between the US/Europe is mostly due to taxes. US prices don't have taxes included, European prices do.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  Here in Austria we have 20% VAT, and US prices are typically without tax. So the 25% price difference is really just a 5% price difference, which is still shitty, but not as horrendous as you make it seem. Also, the Mac mini is very special: - tiny footprint without external power brick - very high reliability - completely inaudible for typical developer usage - extremely low power usage (the 6 core Intel Mac mini was an exception) It's the perfect home (or office) server. You can put it into a bookshelf or in a cabinet, it won't run hot, it won't disturb you with noise in the living room.... I just don't know of anything else that fits the bill. The only shitty thing is that they are charging ridiculous prices for storage, and attaching external storage sucks because it ruins the tiny form factor, and also because the USB-C cables that come with SSD drives tend to easily disconnect in my experience.
  - culopatin 4y ago
    But the tax in the US at least where I’m at is 6 or 7%, not 20.
    - newaccount74 4y ago
      Yes, but that difference isn't Apple's fault, only the 5% they add on top. Every product you buy in Europe is more expensive because of the higher VAT.
tibbon 4y ago
I'm likely going to order one of their Minis with the top CPU option and 32gb ram for audio production here. I've got an 2018 i7 model which is fine, but this one should set me for a _long_ time.
- vishnugupta 4y ago
  That's my setup and I was thinking exactly same; Mini M2 Pro with 32GB RAM would be perfect for me. Except that I don't have too many complaints with my current machine which I feel can easily work just fine for at least 2 more years.
  - tibbon 4y ago
    I really just use my machine 95% as a tape machine with few plugins or edits. So as long as I can get 64 tracks of in/out reliably with 128-sample buffers (or lower) then I'm set. I just haven't tried that out in my new studio yet, as it's under construction. If I can do this, then I'll skip the upgrade for now.
- renaudg 4y ago
  I considered that as well, but price-wise you're now getting into Mac Studio territory, and it's not clear at all which of the two comes out on top. So I'll wait for benchmarks. I can recommend the MaxTech channel on Youtube for this sort of stuff.
unicornporn 4y ago
> given that its keyboard or batteries won't break There's just soldered RAM and storage that can break and can't be replaced (without Apple robbing you).
- dymk 4y ago
  Ah yes, ram and flash storage, the things famously known for breaking in modern compute hardware
tomcam 4y ago
You’re right. That is the sub rosa win of the day. I had no idea. It makes me wish I had a reason to buy a new computer!

moonchrome 4y ago

I was thinking about throwing some last gen parts into an old tower/PSU I have to build a desktop for inlaws since they are stuck on a 10year old hand down laptop. This is a good package at that price (599$) - power consumption is likely nothing, MacOS included in price, small and quiet - will comfortably browse the internet, play videos, etc. for the next 5+ years. I won't be able to repair it out of warranty so that's a bummer- but at such low price and their usage pattern I guess I can live with the risk.

myself248 4y ago
Shame I can't buy an M2 Max on an ATX mobo.
- judge2020 4y ago
  I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and thereafter is a direct result of moving the memory closer to the die. The power efficiency, sure, that's all engineering, but super close and fast memory right next to the CPU is only one step away from AMD's 3D v-cache that has (had) the 5800X3D beating out newer 7000 series AMD chips.
  - kcb 4y ago
    I think the bigger factor is that the 3D v-cache is SRAM, which is why it needs a whole stacked die for just 64mb.
  - ac29 4y ago
    > I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and thereafter is a direct result of moving the memory closer to the die I'm not sure why this Apple marketing point gets repeated so often. The M2 has the same memory support as current Intel chips: 128-bit LPDDR5 6400. Mounting the memory on the same package as the CPU might have some engineering advantages compared to socketed RAM, but it doesnt make the (industry standard) memory any faster.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - cztomsik 4y ago
      IMHO the biggest advantage is the RAM->GPU VRAM pipeline, or at least, that was my experience before - whatever you want to send to the VRAM, it has to be in RAM first, and you have to wait until it gets copied, before you can use that RAM again. With unified memory it should not be necessary anymore (you just mark that part as input for GPU). Same should sort-of apply for iGPUs but I'm not 100% sure. And given that the whole MacOS is built around various GPU-accelerated frameworks, it kind-of matters a lot.
  - Sebb767 4y ago
    ATX is just a formfactor, there's nothing preventing apple from releasing an ATX board with soldered-on memory - this is actually not even that unusual in the µATX formfactor.
- BirAdam 4y ago
  It would be cool to get the SoC on a socket like the Pentium II was, and then have some NVMe slots, PCIe slots, and more I/O ports. This would also be better for the planet if it was a standard feature of each Macintosh and just the SoC got replaced. Unfortunately, Apple's Macintosh line doesn't work that way. The first Macs were all-in-one designs, the 90s saw some heterogeneity, and then the Macintosh line came back to an all-in-one design (except for the MacPro line and the G4 Cube). Today, the G4 Cube is like something out of an alternate universe. Not only was it upgradable, it was also incredibly easy to "open up".
randomopining 4y ago
Is this thing actually faster than a cheap Ryzen build for browsing? Like a 5600g that are super cheap now
- rsynnott 4y ago
  Yes: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5600g https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5600g https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 (same chip as in the cheaper Mini; the Mini has a fan so it should run a _little_ faster there) Though for web browsing both presumably fall solidly under "good enough". If I was signing up for Tech Support for Relatives, though, I'd _definitely_ go with the Mac; you don't want to be getting phonecalls about Windows 12 or whatever in 2027.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Apples M chips are stupid fast at browsing the web because they have some native CPU instructions for JavaScript that x86_64 chips don’t.
  - acdha 4y ago
    They’re fast but that’s not usually why. ARM added some functions which could help with math-limited code: https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architectures-and-processors-blog/posts/armv8-a-architecture-2016-additions https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architecture... Most JavaScript isn’t dependent on that specific a feature for performance, however. In most cases what matters more is that they have great memory performance and handle branch-heavy code well.
  - yurishimo 4y ago
    Assuming you use Safari. For older relatives, probably not a bad assumption, but an important distinction to make nonetheless.
    - acdha 4y ago
      Mozilla also implemented it. I believe Chrome/v8 have as well, but I know there was some work there to avoid accidentally enabling it on older ARM chips which don't have support for it.
MikusR 4y ago
185W is nothing? My Haswell desktop with dedicated GPU, ssd and two spinning hard drives maxes at 140W
- moonchrome 4y ago
  Where are you getting that number ? Just going on M2 MB Air battery lifetime I'd say you're an order of magnitude off. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201897 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201897 Mac mini (M1, 2020) Apple M1 chip, 16GB unified memory, 2TB SSD Power Consumption Idle Max 6.8 W 39 W This is 16GB/2TB model, entry level spec should be even lower.
  - MikusR 4y ago
    https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/ https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      That's sounds like the PSU spec. They could have clocked it significantly higher than laptop for perf but I expect it to be in the M1 Mac mini range power consumption wise.

judge2020 4y ago

The lack of dedicated DisplayPort ports is fairly disappointing to me since their implementation is just "native DisplayPort output over USB‑C" and it doesn't support MST, so you can only do one displayport signal per port, even with a thunderbolt 4 hub with some bidirectional USB-C <-> Displayport cables.

kmeisthax 4y ago
MST wouldn't be supported even if it had a DisplayPort output. Apple explicitly did not support MST pre-M1 as well.
- andrewia 4y ago
  Yes, although that's a MacOS restriction, and MST is already used in MacOS to carry multiple streams to a single high-resolution monitor. And as Asahi Linux keeps getting more usable, I hope it can be a viable alternative, so Apple's hardware can be used without MacOS's arbitrary restrictions.
- acchow 4y ago
  But it worked if you installed Windows instead. So the hardware supports MST
  - ccouzens 4y ago
    The Intel hardware supported MST. It's unclear about their ARM hardware (and the suspicion is not supported from people who've looked into it).
comboy 4y ago
Check out DisplayLink. I'm using multiple monitors with M1 macbook air which officially only supports single external display. Works great so far. I agree with your point though.
- agloeregrets 4y ago
  I used an M1 Air docked with displaylink for about 8 months. 1. The Displaylink software heats the machine lightly in the background, and it just gets worse with resolution. 2. The Adaptor is unreliable and can do some really wonky stuff around dock and undock due to Apple's locked USB policies. 3. The old series of Adaptors do not support 4K60, so if you plan on using it with a 4K display, you need to pony up on costs. Assuming we see more ~$1600 sales on the M1 Pro 14 inch, that is easily $300 more computer than a $1299 M2 macbook pro.

mk89 4y ago

I totally agree with you. They are diversifying their laptop/desktop solutions like crazy. Even a Macbook Air can almost compete with the entry-level version of the Macbook Pro, which is great to be honest. I heard they are exceptionally good. Honestly, 7-900$ for a machine that will not get old very soon is not so bad, especially if you already own a screen (which due to WFH you kind of have to have together with a "decent" keyboard, etc.) Very smart move, honestly.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
"that will not get old very soon" No idea how you can write that with straight fingers.
- zedpm 4y ago
  I’m still using a 2015 MacBook Pro, and it doesn’t feel slow. I’ve done no repairs or maintenance on it in all that time.
  - ValentineC 4y ago
    I tried the older 14" MacBook Pro for just over a month, and it's a world of difference going back to my late 2013 13" MacBook Pro. I've been holding out for the new one and will be placing an order in a bit. :) The splurge will more than make up for the hours of life I'll save from browsing resource-heavy websites.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    I updated to M1 MBP in 2020 because the 2015 MBP I had previously felt slow, and it got progressively worse with each macOS update.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I was using Blender on a 12 year old iMac until just a few weeks ago. Desktops don't seem to age as quickly as their portable counterparts (they are certainly less fragile).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

SergeAx 4y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34412671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34412671

ricardobayes 4y ago

I hear you, but in Europe it's around 700€, which also buys a pretty solid windows or linux laptop. If you're not locked in to mac, a comparably priced laptop with intel 12 gen CPU, 16GB RAM and a RTX 3050, which is arguably a lot more versatile machine. I think I would like Mac's more if they weren't so absurdly overpriced (approx. 25%+ over US prices) here in Europe.

pcardoso 4y ago
The price difference between the US/Europe is mostly due to taxes. US prices don't have taxes included, European prices do.
newaccount74 4y ago
Here in Austria we have 20% VAT, and US prices are typically without tax. So the 25% price difference is really just a 5% price difference, which is still shitty, but not as horrendous as you make it seem. Also, the Mac mini is very special: - tiny footprint without external power brick - very high reliability - completely inaudible for typical developer usage - extremely low power usage (the 6 core Intel Mac mini was an exception) It's the perfect home (or office) server. You can put it into a bookshelf or in a cabinet, it won't run hot, it won't disturb you with noise in the living room.... I just don't know of anything else that fits the bill. The only shitty thing is that they are charging ridiculous prices for storage, and attaching external storage sucks because it ruins the tiny form factor, and also because the USB-C cables that come with SSD drives tend to easily disconnect in my experience.
- culopatin 4y ago
  But the tax in the US at least where I’m at is 6 or 7%, not 20.
  - newaccount74 4y ago
    Yes, but that difference isn't Apple's fault, only the 5% they add on top. Every product you buy in Europe is more expensive because of the higher VAT.

tibbon 4y ago

I'm likely going to order one of their Minis with the top CPU option and 32gb ram for audio production here. I've got an 2018 i7 model which is fine, but this one should set me for a _long_ time.

vishnugupta 4y ago
That's my setup and I was thinking exactly same; Mini M2 Pro with 32GB RAM would be perfect for me. Except that I don't have too many complaints with my current machine which I feel can easily work just fine for at least 2 more years.
- tibbon 4y ago
  I really just use my machine 95% as a tape machine with few plugins or edits. So as long as I can get 64 tracks of in/out reliably with 128-sample buffers (or lower) then I'm set. I just haven't tried that out in my new studio yet, as it's under construction. If I can do this, then I'll skip the upgrade for now.
renaudg 4y ago
I considered that as well, but price-wise you're now getting into Mac Studio territory, and it's not clear at all which of the two comes out on top. So I'll wait for benchmarks. I can recommend the MaxTech channel on Youtube for this sort of stuff.

unicornporn 4y ago

> given that its keyboard or batteries won't break There's just soldered RAM and storage that can break and can't be replaced (without Apple robbing you).

dymk 4y ago
Ah yes, ram and flash storage, the things famously known for breaking in modern compute hardware

tomcam 4y ago

You’re right. That is the sub rosa win of the day. I had no idea. It makes me wish I had a reason to buy a new computer!