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Few years into our emigration to USA, my family brought my grandfather over to USA. He was a blue collar worker, electrician at the cement factory, entering th

Few years into our emigration to USA, my family brought my grandfather over to USA. He was a blue collar worker, electrician at the cement factory, entering that profession right after the war, which he spent under the occupation and mostly I think as a shepherd for cows and pigs in what is now Belarus. He has built several houses in his life and was always incredibly handy with tools. We took him to Home Depot. He looked around, stood silently for a while, and then cried. His words were "we have wasted so much our lives". Trading for nails and building materials, scrounging and scratching out a living, while the country spent all the money on weapons (currently being burned out in Ukraine, and good riddance) As my father told my then girlfriend and now wife, Soviet Union was okay for us growing up there because we didn't know any better.

pavlov 4y ago
Now the challenge for us is that we’re still stuck thinking stores full of Chinese junk is the pinnacle of civilization and we’re unable to know any better despite accumulating evidence of planetary destruction.
- jhoechtl 4y ago
  But where lies the middle ground? Soviets having one sort of butter vs. 20 sorts of butter (yoghurt, drills, ...) many of which were produced abroad? Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney?
  - bendbro 4y ago
    You'll be called a fascist if you develop this view.
    - gotorazor 4y ago
      communist
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Most of the food in the grocery store in the US is not produced abroad. Especially perishables like dairy which have import restrictions and would be too pricey to bring in from far away.
  - somethingreen 4y ago
    Both of you are missing the point. Soviets didn't have one sort of butter in the way west had its 20. You couldn't go to the store and buy however much of that shitty butter you needed when you needed it. You had to catch it when it's there and get in line before it runs out, or know someone who'd tip you off, or know someone who'd sell you from the back door. And then somewhere else (not where it was produced) they'd be dumping excess butter into the ditch because it went bad. It really isn't something you want to find middle ground with. That's like looking for middle ground between wearing nail polish and having a gangrene.
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      I'm saying that market economies work best when there is real competition AND demand for products that provide better lifetime value and utility. Corporate media drives culture towards positions that benefit it rather than society. The demand part is cultural. Lowering barriers to entry to enable more competition is political. Both are needed to change course for the west.
      - somethingreen 4y ago
        I don't disagree with what you are saying, I just find it funny that this discussion is happening in context of soviet planned economy, which had no market to speak of, no competition, complete politically moderated indirection between demand and production, and entrepreneurship being outlawed thus no concept of market entry.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney? WE do insource some goods – where we have comparative advantage, or where the cost of trade negates the benefits of trading with someone who produces it at lower opportunity cost. Insourcing beyond that draws the production possibilities curve inward, making us (and our trade partners) poorer. Generally, this is a losing deal. It is possible that there are incidental distributional advantages, so that it makes us poorer in aggregate but distributes returns in a way which reduces harms from the current distribution. But that’s not obviously generally the case, and in any case without clear and overwhelming evidence that this would be the effect I’d rather just attack distribution from a position of greater aggregate prosperity than start lopping off prosperity and hoping better distribution came out of it.
- gnarbarian 4y ago
  we have a big cultural problem. our current economy is great at optimizing for low cost mass produced items that last 6 months and then get thrown in the dump. a pair of shoes that lasts years isn't as profitable as a pair sold every 6 months. a coat or car that can be repaired is one less customer shopping for a new one. engineers design cars they don't have to work on or repair, and will never drive. in a healthy economy new entrants who introduce more competitive products that push us towards some impossible limit for utility and value over the lifetime of the product would be more successful. but that's not happening. maintainable products that last are out there (fewer every year) but people don't buy them. I have a pair of 5 year old redwing boots that feel fantastic amd look great. I have a 1986 Toyota pickup I can repair myself that runs like the devil was chasing it. (new Toyotas are a disgrace) I don't know how to fix it beyond getting people to really value and embrace these concepts of simplicity, maintainability and longevity, over convenience, trendy, flashy, and novelty. even weirder, if you ask people they will tell you they value maintainability and longevity. Something is perverting the market to drive people towards cheap bullshit. I believe this is concentration of power in cartels of companies that control the markets. we have (accidentally?) erected a finely tuned machine that pushes markets towards cartels who sacrifice domestic craftsmanship and utility for mass produced crap while both creating and sponsoring the role models our culture idolizes. this is a feedback loop that will eventually become so inefficient that it will collapse. thanks for coming to my TED talk please read shop class as soulcraft: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261332-shop-class-as-soulcraft https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261332-shop-class-as-so...
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Lost me at cars. Cars used to be horrible. They’ve never been better.
    - pmontra 4y ago
      I'm not sure. I was joking with a friend recently, telling him that he should have asked the seller in the salon for a real car, not his Mercedes that talks and turns on some settings that annoy him and he turns off again and again at every engine start. My mute and semi-dumb Citroen is a better car on that metric.
- winrid 4y ago
  Isn't it xenophobic to call it "Chinese junk"? The cheap junk is designed here in the US to be as cheap as possible and break as soon as possible. We did that. Not them. They're just building it.
  - valleyer 4y ago
    I think it's a bit harsh to call them xenophobic, but I did have a similar thought recently. What's worse, manufacturing cheap junk for pay, or filling your home with cheap junk?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - winrid 4y ago
      Maybe it was harsh. However I think it makes the Chinese people look bad, where they aren't really to blame. The CCP keeps labor prices low, and we exploit it, and then we sit here and complain the stuff they make is junk.
      - em500 4y ago
        Labor prices are much lower in India, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines among others, than they are in China. So there is a bit more to the story than "the CCP keeps labor prices low".
      - wkat4242 4y ago
        > Maybe it was harsh. However I think it makes the Chinese people look bad, where they aren't really to blame. The CCP keeps labor prices low, and we exploit it, and then we sit here and complain the stuff they make is junk. When someone says "Chinese junk" you're not really insulting the people IMO. Just the cheap grade disposable crap you can find in corner bazaars. That stuff that breaks after 2 uses. Like someone else said, in the 80s "made in Taiwan" was a rubbing joke and before that Japan. But it has nothing to do with the people, just the phase their industry is in. It's like people here in Europe saying American cars are gas guzzlers (which they mostly are compared to EU models). You wouldn't take that personally.
- d_theorist 4y ago
  Please can we stop with this ridiculous exaggeration. It is actually very harmful. There is no evidence of “planetary destruction” or anything like it.
- jvnnmfjvfjvflkj 4y ago
  [flagged]
ozim 4y ago
You did not have to go as far as USA to see that. Trip to western Berlin would be enough. Countries that got under USA sphere of influence had it much better. They got lots of money with Marshall's plan to rebuild economies after war. So even if they would knew there is a better life it was all decided at Jalta and they were most likely not able to do anything about it without straight out starting new war against Soviets running things in the east. Unfortunately scratching out a living was their destiny.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Except those in the "USA sphere" that had pro-US dictators forced upon them - like Chile, Argentina, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc. - even Spain, Portugal, South Korea, Taiwan and Brazil suffered greatly under US-supported (to varying degrees) dictatorships.
  - timeon 4y ago
    He was mentioning west Berlin but yeah some had pro-US dictators some had pro-USSR dictators.
  - jvnnmfjvfjvflkj 4y ago
    No they haven't. They have all lifted millions out of poverty.
  - gotorazor 4y ago
    Except that, materially, those in the "USA sphere" -- even those with pro-US dictators forced upon them -- are better off comparatively than their neighbours or a comparable country. Just to look at the countries you listed and their GDP per capita: 1) Asia Taiwan vs Mainland China South Korea vs North Korea Indonesia (under Suharto) vs Indonesia (under Sukarno) 2) Europe Spain & Portugal vs Eastern European countries (These two are weird. They were originally old facist countries that stayed neutral during WWII. They were also rural and not industrial compared to every other Western European country until recently) 3) South America Guatemala vs Nicaragua Brazil vs India (This is tough, since no country can really compare itself to Brazil in South America. I think Indonesia is probably most similar, but they are also on the list. India was more Soviet-aligned) Argentina & Chile vs every other Spanish-speaking South American country. It's not all rainbows and sunshine, but everybody struggles to some degree during the cold war. Those that the CIA kept propping up are much much better economically than those that didn't receive US funding and arms. I can't believe I am defending the CIA in 2023. But here we are.
gotorazor 4y ago
Great story. I had a similar one with my French uncle. Home Depot blew his mind.

pavlov 4y ago

Now the challenge for us is that we’re still stuck thinking stores full of Chinese junk is the pinnacle of civilization and we’re unable to know any better despite accumulating evidence of planetary destruction.

jhoechtl 4y ago
But where lies the middle ground? Soviets having one sort of butter vs. 20 sorts of butter (yoghurt, drills, ...) many of which were produced abroad? Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney?
- bendbro 4y ago
  You'll be called a fascist if you develop this view.
  - gotorazor 4y ago
    communist
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Most of the food in the grocery store in the US is not produced abroad. Especially perishables like dairy which have import restrictions and would be too pricey to bring in from far away.
- somethingreen 4y ago
  Both of you are missing the point. Soviets didn't have one sort of butter in the way west had its 20. You couldn't go to the store and buy however much of that shitty butter you needed when you needed it. You had to catch it when it's there and get in line before it runs out, or know someone who'd tip you off, or know someone who'd sell you from the back door. And then somewhere else (not where it was produced) they'd be dumping excess butter into the ditch because it went bad. It really isn't something you want to find middle ground with. That's like looking for middle ground between wearing nail polish and having a gangrene.
  - gnarbarian 4y ago
    I'm saying that market economies work best when there is real competition AND demand for products that provide better lifetime value and utility. Corporate media drives culture towards positions that benefit it rather than society. The demand part is cultural. Lowering barriers to entry to enable more competition is political. Both are needed to change course for the west.
    - somethingreen 4y ago
      I don't disagree with what you are saying, I just find it funny that this discussion is happening in context of soviet planned economy, which had no market to speak of, no competition, complete politically moderated indirection between demand and production, and entrepreneurship being outlawed thus no concept of market entry.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney? WE do insource some goods – where we have comparative advantage, or where the cost of trade negates the benefits of trading with someone who produces it at lower opportunity cost. Insourcing beyond that draws the production possibilities curve inward, making us (and our trade partners) poorer. Generally, this is a losing deal. It is possible that there are incidental distributional advantages, so that it makes us poorer in aggregate but distributes returns in a way which reduces harms from the current distribution. But that’s not obviously generally the case, and in any case without clear and overwhelming evidence that this would be the effect I’d rather just attack distribution from a position of greater aggregate prosperity than start lopping off prosperity and hoping better distribution came out of it.
gnarbarian 4y ago
we have a big cultural problem. our current economy is great at optimizing for low cost mass produced items that last 6 months and then get thrown in the dump. a pair of shoes that lasts years isn't as profitable as a pair sold every 6 months. a coat or car that can be repaired is one less customer shopping for a new one. engineers design cars they don't have to work on or repair, and will never drive. in a healthy economy new entrants who introduce more competitive products that push us towards some impossible limit for utility and value over the lifetime of the product would be more successful. but that's not happening. maintainable products that last are out there (fewer every year) but people don't buy them. I have a pair of 5 year old redwing boots that feel fantastic amd look great. I have a 1986 Toyota pickup I can repair myself that runs like the devil was chasing it. (new Toyotas are a disgrace) I don't know how to fix it beyond getting people to really value and embrace these concepts of simplicity, maintainability and longevity, over convenience, trendy, flashy, and novelty. even weirder, if you ask people they will tell you they value maintainability and longevity. Something is perverting the market to drive people towards cheap bullshit. I believe this is concentration of power in cartels of companies that control the markets. we have (accidentally?) erected a finely tuned machine that pushes markets towards cartels who sacrifice domestic craftsmanship and utility for mass produced crap while both creating and sponsoring the role models our culture idolizes. this is a feedback loop that will eventually become so inefficient that it will collapse. thanks for coming to my TED talk please read shop class as soulcraft: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261332-shop-class-as-soulcraft https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261332-shop-class-as-so...
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Lost me at cars. Cars used to be horrible. They’ve never been better.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    I'm not sure. I was joking with a friend recently, telling him that he should have asked the seller in the salon for a real car, not his Mercedes that talks and turns on some settings that annoy him and he turns off again and again at every engine start. My mute and semi-dumb Citroen is a better car on that metric.
winrid 4y ago
Isn't it xenophobic to call it "Chinese junk"? The cheap junk is designed here in the US to be as cheap as possible and break as soon as possible. We did that. Not them. They're just building it.
- valleyer 4y ago
  I think it's a bit harsh to call them xenophobic, but I did have a similar thought recently. What's worse, manufacturing cheap junk for pay, or filling your home with cheap junk?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - winrid 4y ago
    Maybe it was harsh. However I think it makes the Chinese people look bad, where they aren't really to blame. The CCP keeps labor prices low, and we exploit it, and then we sit here and complain the stuff they make is junk.
    - em500 4y ago
      Labor prices are much lower in India, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines among others, than they are in China. So there is a bit more to the story than "the CCP keeps labor prices low".
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      > Maybe it was harsh. However I think it makes the Chinese people look bad, where they aren't really to blame. The CCP keeps labor prices low, and we exploit it, and then we sit here and complain the stuff they make is junk. When someone says "Chinese junk" you're not really insulting the people IMO. Just the cheap grade disposable crap you can find in corner bazaars. That stuff that breaks after 2 uses. Like someone else said, in the 80s "made in Taiwan" was a rubbing joke and before that Japan. But it has nothing to do with the people, just the phase their industry is in. It's like people here in Europe saying American cars are gas guzzlers (which they mostly are compared to EU models). You wouldn't take that personally.
d_theorist 4y ago
Please can we stop with this ridiculous exaggeration. It is actually very harmful. There is no evidence of “planetary destruction” or anything like it.
jvnnmfjvfjvflkj 4y ago
[flagged]

ozim 4y ago

You did not have to go as far as USA to see that. Trip to western Berlin would be enough. Countries that got under USA sphere of influence had it much better. They got lots of money with Marshall's plan to rebuild economies after war. So even if they would knew there is a better life it was all decided at Jalta and they were most likely not able to do anything about it without straight out starting new war against Soviets running things in the east. Unfortunately scratching out a living was their destiny.

nivenkos 4y ago
Except those in the "USA sphere" that had pro-US dictators forced upon them - like Chile, Argentina, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc. - even Spain, Portugal, South Korea, Taiwan and Brazil suffered greatly under US-supported (to varying degrees) dictatorships.
- timeon 4y ago
  He was mentioning west Berlin but yeah some had pro-US dictators some had pro-USSR dictators.
- jvnnmfjvfjvflkj 4y ago
  No they haven't. They have all lifted millions out of poverty.
- gotorazor 4y ago
  Except that, materially, those in the "USA sphere" -- even those with pro-US dictators forced upon them -- are better off comparatively than their neighbours or a comparable country. Just to look at the countries you listed and their GDP per capita: 1) Asia Taiwan vs Mainland China South Korea vs North Korea Indonesia (under Suharto) vs Indonesia (under Sukarno) 2) Europe Spain & Portugal vs Eastern European countries (These two are weird. They were originally old facist countries that stayed neutral during WWII. They were also rural and not industrial compared to every other Western European country until recently) 3) South America Guatemala vs Nicaragua Brazil vs India (This is tough, since no country can really compare itself to Brazil in South America. I think Indonesia is probably most similar, but they are also on the list. India was more Soviet-aligned) Argentina & Chile vs every other Spanish-speaking South American country. It's not all rainbows and sunshine, but everybody struggles to some degree during the cold war. Those that the CIA kept propping up are much much better economically than those that didn't receive US funding and arms. I can't believe I am defending the CIA in 2023. But here we are.

gotorazor 4y ago

Great story. I had a similar one with my French uncle. Home Depot blew his mind.