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In 2017 we installed a very efficient air-source heat pump and solar panels. My electrical utility offers 1:1 buyback of electricity so I am able to build up a

In 2017 we installed a very efficient air-source heat pump and solar panels. My electrical utility offers 1:1 buyback of electricity so I am able to build up a credit in the summer and run the heat pump well into the fall and winter on that surplus. The system is sized for cooling the house which means that it is undersized for heating, but during cool fall and spring temperatures it operates satisfactorily as a heat source. Our fallback is the pre-existing gas boiler which is much simpler, more reliable and able to be powered by a small generator during our all-too-frequent power outages. If I am still in this home when the current heat pump fails I will seriously consider a ground-source system instead. The ability to operate during an extended power outage is a significant concern and I expect to always retain the gas boiler as a backup.

macinjosh 4y ago
Still waiting for one of these people who rave about their heat pump system to actually rely on it full time without a backup. Most folks could barely afford to replace an existing furnace in a place that has all the fixtures installed, much less pay to install a second one based on different setup, and then pay for maintaining two systems on top of everything else. It is absurd to think that this is a plausible way forward for anyone other than the wealthy tech enthusiast. Same thing for induction stoves. You all should start a club or something. The tech is not ready if you need a backup. I've lived in extreme cold climate areas and no gas furnace I've had has ever needed a backup.
- dashundchen 4y ago
  I live in the snowy Great Lakes and I rely on a ground source heat pump and hot water heater full time. No issues at all. Cost similar to a high end gas furnace system when the tax credits were applied. Probably cheaper with air source systems today. I live in the city and don't lose power, but I'm hoping to eventually use a EV as a battery backup when the equipment is available and standards are finalized. A battery in a compact like the Chevy Bolt could power my heating system for several days. It's not like modern gas furnaces don't require power to operate. In a recent Buffalo blizzard power went out and many people with gas heating still froze and had their pipes burst.
- RobinL 4y ago
  If gas remains expensive in Europe, it won't be absurd, so much as an economic no brainer to have a air to air heat pump, alongside a back up gas boiler. This should happen pretty quickly as renewables take off, and gas is no longer needed for electricity generation when the wind is blowing. At some point a bit further on, the backup can be simple direct electric heating.
- grey-area 4y ago
  I know a couple of people who rely on a ground source heat pump without a backup in Europe. They also both have induction hobs as it happens!
  - Volundr 4y ago
    The induction comment was weird. I went from electric to induction a few years ago, and it's not life changing or anything, but it works reliability. I suppose it's faster, but for me the main benefit is it makes it much harder for me to accidentally leave a burner on and burn my house down.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  > Still waiting for one of these people who rave about their heat pump system to actually rely on it full time without a backup. Eh? Most new houses in Ireland have them these days (it's more or less the only way to meet the efficiency requirements). There's never a backup. > Same thing for induction stoves. Eh? Again, these are pretty standard these days, and why would you need a backup?
  - poutine 4y ago
    Different geographies have different requirements. You're not likely to need to face a week or more of no power after an ice storm in -10'C in Ireland.
    - PinguTS 4y ago
      We don't have power outages after ice storms. Temperatures of -10°C are regularly in Scandinavia as well as in Austria, Swiss and Germany. We are living in a developed world with working infrastructure. Power outages happens only by accident like when an US helicopter tries weird landings: https://www-abendzeitung--muenchen-de.translate.goog/bayern/neben-der-a7-us-kampfhubschrauber-reisst-hochspannungsleitung-ab-art-478357?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-abendzeitung--muenchen-de.translate.goog/bayern/...
      - rini17 4y ago
        There are occassional outages. But the pylons are designed with icing in the mind and that does the difference. More outages are due to poorly trimmed trees falling on wires than ice itself. That usually affects only small area and can be fixed quickly.
        Scoundreller 4y ago
        Issue with the ice accretion is that when things get bad… they get very bad: https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/01/05/canada-history-jan-5-1998-the-deadly-ice-storm-of-the-century/ https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/01/05/canada-history-jan-5-199...
- Volundr 4y ago
  Define backup? I have a heat pump as my only source of cooling/heat, but it does have a single heat strip in it for the couple days a year it gets too cold for the heat pump alone. There no "second fixture" to maintain. This is common for my area.
  - rainsford 4y ago
    Same for where I live. And in fact it's arguably a simpler setup since where I live you also need air conditioning in the summer, so many homes already have 90% of what they need for a heat pump setup (which is after all just an AC running in reverse). Installing some other heat source alongside the AC you already have instead of just installing a heat pump for year round needs is arguably the more complicated option.
    - jakedata 4y ago
      My heat pump was a retrofit to an existing home with a fully functional gas boiler. Being a ductless split system, it did not interfere with the existing baseboard heat in any way. By retaining the boiler I was able to afford the installation of solar panels and the heat pump in the same year and probably reap 85% of the efficiency benefit for a substantially reduced up-front cost.
- nagisa 4y ago
  I’ve a 6kW nominal, ground-source heat pump as the only heat source. This is a well insulated building standing atop the soil of a European country with a temperate climate*. It does a great job at +35°C (passively cooling) and just as great at -35°C. During installation we've even made a mistake and it heated the building up to something like +27°C inside during early winter all without breaking a sweat (or my wallet.) The tech is ready. Many attempts to apply it is what’s getting botched. * EDIT: having checked, most of europe falls within temperate – the country is up north.
- PinguTS 4y ago
  Its always funny reading such comments while others are running for years their heat pumps without any problems needing a backup. Not only they are used in Scandinavia for years. Also in Germany they are used for years. The company Waterkotte operates since the 1980s in Germany and is a pioneer in this showing it is working. But there are always people ignoring the facts.
- leoedin 4y ago
  Loads of countries have effective power grids which go down incredibly rarely. I can't even remember the last power cut I had - maybe a few years ago? It's certainly rare enough that I don't need my main source of cooking and heat to take it into account. My parents live in rural Scotland and use a ground source heat pump for heat and an induction stove for cooking. Power outages happen more often - but still pretty rarely. If they do, they burn wood for heat and eat cold food for a few hours.
  - tomohawk 4y ago
    And when the grid goes down, then what will you do? How will the utility compensate you for your death when they find you frozen? This is not an academic question, especially in North America. The weather here can be very harsh. We lost power earlier this year as the temparature dropped to 0F (-18C). Our contingency (oil heat, oil generator) kicked in and we were fine, but many people were not. After power was restored, people with air source heat pumps were still stuck, as the heat pumps don't function well at all at those temps, and heating up a house after it has cooled to a low temp is not what a air source heat pump is good at. These are not problems at all for an oil furnace.
    - alkonaut 4y ago
      If I didn’t have a fireplace I’d probably invest in some kerosene space heaters or similar. I haven’t had a power outage lasting over an hour for as long as I can remember (years), but that doesn’t mean I’m not considering that scenario. There could be wars or sabotage or whatever. One should always be able to manage for a week or so without power and that will require some form of backup such as a combustion heater of some sort. But having a backup solution that keeps you alive for a week isn’t so expensive. You don’t need two completely separate and redundant heating methods simply because one of them relies on the power grid.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  The article is light on technical details, pointing to a heat pump vendor site for "proof" that they're great. I live in a heavily populated area with high standard of living, and yet we have had power outages lasting up to a week in the years we've lived here. Almost all in the winter, but also some due to hurricanes. We have have solar, which is great in the summer heat, but not as wonderful in the winter. We have air source heat pump, but also oil furnace backup. We normally run the heat pump when its above 35F, as the efficiency of the heat pumps drops like a rock below 40F and its just not worth running below 35F. The heat pump is not an ancient POS. It works great 99% of the time, but 1% of 365 is 3.65 days per year. Banking on "most of the time" to be alright all of the time is foolish. We have diesel generator in case of power outage, which allows us to run the oil furnace using the same fuel as the furnace. This strategy has allowed us to ride through many 1% case scenarios without drama.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Your normal experience is far outside what most people in Europe would prepare for, so our comments on this thread should probably be ignored by North Americans. Looking at [1], I can see only two power cuts lasting more than 24 hours (Barcelona, 2007 and Cyprus, 2011). Instead, "major power cut" refers to things like "The power cut occurred at 4:20 pm and power was slowly restored between 5:20 and 6:30 pm." (Glasgow, 2009.) I can't remember being without power for more than 6 hours, and it's probably more like 3 or 4. I've been responsible for some colocated servers for about 8 years, and there's been one occasion where grid power was lost. That was about 20 minutes. A Raspberry Pi I have in a village in England has lost power once in the last three years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages
  - nerdbert 4y ago
    > I live in a heavily populated area with high standard of living, and yet we have had power outages lasting up to a week in the years we've lived here. Maybe you are in the USA? The infrastructure situation seems to be different there. We don't have any above-ground power lines in this country (except for high-voltage long-distance transmission trunks) and in the past ten years the power has gone out exactly twice, according to my uptime logs - once for 40 minutes and once for about three hours.
poutine 4y ago
Living in the PNW, I'm building a new house and I've chosen a dual fuel hybrid heat pump system as per https://www.bryantbing.com/products/hybrid-heat/ https://www.bryantbing.com/products/hybrid-heat/ I'll also have solar + battery. Should be able to run the furnace & fan but not the heat pump (too many kW/h) during a power outage and thus heating with gas. It'll run off the heat pump for 90-95% of the year, only using gas on the coldest days, or during an outage. To go full heat pump for 100% of the year you need to seriously upsize the heat pump(s) and you wouldn't have performance during an outage.
- pinot 4y ago
  Can't heat with gas without electricity, unless you have a genset or power wall kind of thing to provide epower.
  - poutine 4y ago
    I have a sol-ark 12k which allows for grid isolation and a bunch of batteries.
  - nerdbert 4y ago
    Until a couple years ago we had a gas-fired tankless water heater which used a single D-cell battery for ignition, which had to be changed once every year or two. It wasn't connected to wall power at all.
    - alvah 4y ago
      There are, or used to be, Bosch tankless water heaters which used a small turbine connected to a piezo-electric igniter, no external power source required ever.
    - hinkley 4y ago
      But you need a blower or pump in order to circulate heat in a house. Hot water is better than nothing but it won't keep your fish from freezing.
- 4y ago
Scoundreller 4y ago
Since your natgas consumption is low, could a wood pellet heater meet your needs instead of natgas? I guess it depends if your natgas bill has a big fixed cost (and I guess you’ve already covered the sunk cost of connection…)
- thomasjb 4y ago
  A wood pellet heater can be a fairly complex item, for a backup (depending on what usage frequency backup entails) a wood fired furnace might be more suitable if the owner is happy with having to add fuel every once in a while. Myself, I would like a ground source system that lets me store in heat from an oil fired AGA, a wood burning furnace and water heater panels on the roof.

macinjosh 4y ago

Still waiting for one of these people who rave about their heat pump system to actually rely on it full time without a backup. Most folks could barely afford to replace an existing furnace in a place that has all the fixtures installed, much less pay to install a second one based on different setup, and then pay for maintaining two systems on top of everything else. It is absurd to think that this is a plausible way forward for anyone other than the wealthy tech enthusiast. Same thing for induction stoves. You all should start a club or something. The tech is not ready if you need a backup. I've lived in extreme cold climate areas and no gas furnace I've had has ever needed a backup.

dashundchen 4y ago
I live in the snowy Great Lakes and I rely on a ground source heat pump and hot water heater full time. No issues at all. Cost similar to a high end gas furnace system when the tax credits were applied. Probably cheaper with air source systems today. I live in the city and don't lose power, but I'm hoping to eventually use a EV as a battery backup when the equipment is available and standards are finalized. A battery in a compact like the Chevy Bolt could power my heating system for several days. It's not like modern gas furnaces don't require power to operate. In a recent Buffalo blizzard power went out and many people with gas heating still froze and had their pipes burst.
RobinL 4y ago
If gas remains expensive in Europe, it won't be absurd, so much as an economic no brainer to have a air to air heat pump, alongside a back up gas boiler. This should happen pretty quickly as renewables take off, and gas is no longer needed for electricity generation when the wind is blowing. At some point a bit further on, the backup can be simple direct electric heating.
grey-area 4y ago
I know a couple of people who rely on a ground source heat pump without a backup in Europe. They also both have induction hobs as it happens!
- Volundr 4y ago
  The induction comment was weird. I went from electric to induction a few years ago, and it's not life changing or anything, but it works reliability. I suppose it's faster, but for me the main benefit is it makes it much harder for me to accidentally leave a burner on and burn my house down.
rsynnott 4y ago
> Still waiting for one of these people who rave about their heat pump system to actually rely on it full time without a backup. Eh? Most new houses in Ireland have them these days (it's more or less the only way to meet the efficiency requirements). There's never a backup. > Same thing for induction stoves. Eh? Again, these are pretty standard these days, and why would you need a backup?
- poutine 4y ago
  Different geographies have different requirements. You're not likely to need to face a week or more of no power after an ice storm in -10'C in Ireland.
  - PinguTS 4y ago
    We don't have power outages after ice storms. Temperatures of -10°C are regularly in Scandinavia as well as in Austria, Swiss and Germany. We are living in a developed world with working infrastructure. Power outages happens only by accident like when an US helicopter tries weird landings: https://www-abendzeitung--muenchen-de.translate.goog/bayern/neben-der-a7-us-kampfhubschrauber-reisst-hochspannungsleitung-ab-art-478357?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-abendzeitung--muenchen-de.translate.goog/bayern/...
    - rini17 4y ago
      There are occassional outages. But the pylons are designed with icing in the mind and that does the difference. More outages are due to poorly trimmed trees falling on wires than ice itself. That usually affects only small area and can be fixed quickly.
      - Scoundreller 4y ago
        Issue with the ice accretion is that when things get bad… they get very bad: https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/01/05/canada-history-jan-5-1998-the-deadly-ice-storm-of-the-century/ https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/01/05/canada-history-jan-5-199...
Volundr 4y ago
Define backup? I have a heat pump as my only source of cooling/heat, but it does have a single heat strip in it for the couple days a year it gets too cold for the heat pump alone. There no "second fixture" to maintain. This is common for my area.
- rainsford 4y ago
  Same for where I live. And in fact it's arguably a simpler setup since where I live you also need air conditioning in the summer, so many homes already have 90% of what they need for a heat pump setup (which is after all just an AC running in reverse). Installing some other heat source alongside the AC you already have instead of just installing a heat pump for year round needs is arguably the more complicated option.
  - jakedata 4y ago
    My heat pump was a retrofit to an existing home with a fully functional gas boiler. Being a ductless split system, it did not interfere with the existing baseboard heat in any way. By retaining the boiler I was able to afford the installation of solar panels and the heat pump in the same year and probably reap 85% of the efficiency benefit for a substantially reduced up-front cost.
nagisa 4y ago
I’ve a 6kW nominal, ground-source heat pump as the only heat source. This is a well insulated building standing atop the soil of a European country with a temperate climate*. It does a great job at +35°C (passively cooling) and just as great at -35°C. During installation we've even made a mistake and it heated the building up to something like +27°C inside during early winter all without breaking a sweat (or my wallet.) The tech is ready. Many attempts to apply it is what’s getting botched. * EDIT: having checked, most of europe falls within temperate – the country is up north.
PinguTS 4y ago
Its always funny reading such comments while others are running for years their heat pumps without any problems needing a backup. Not only they are used in Scandinavia for years. Also in Germany they are used for years. The company Waterkotte operates since the 1980s in Germany and is a pioneer in this showing it is working. But there are always people ignoring the facts.
leoedin 4y ago
Loads of countries have effective power grids which go down incredibly rarely. I can't even remember the last power cut I had - maybe a few years ago? It's certainly rare enough that I don't need my main source of cooking and heat to take it into account. My parents live in rural Scotland and use a ground source heat pump for heat and an induction stove for cooking. Power outages happen more often - but still pretty rarely. If they do, they burn wood for heat and eat cold food for a few hours.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  And when the grid goes down, then what will you do? How will the utility compensate you for your death when they find you frozen? This is not an academic question, especially in North America. The weather here can be very harsh. We lost power earlier this year as the temparature dropped to 0F (-18C). Our contingency (oil heat, oil generator) kicked in and we were fine, but many people were not. After power was restored, people with air source heat pumps were still stuck, as the heat pumps don't function well at all at those temps, and heating up a house after it has cooled to a low temp is not what a air source heat pump is good at. These are not problems at all for an oil furnace.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    If I didn’t have a fireplace I’d probably invest in some kerosene space heaters or similar. I haven’t had a power outage lasting over an hour for as long as I can remember (years), but that doesn’t mean I’m not considering that scenario. There could be wars or sabotage or whatever. One should always be able to manage for a week or so without power and that will require some form of backup such as a combustion heater of some sort. But having a backup solution that keeps you alive for a week isn’t so expensive. You don’t need two completely separate and redundant heating methods simply because one of them relies on the power grid.
tomohawk 4y ago
The article is light on technical details, pointing to a heat pump vendor site for "proof" that they're great. I live in a heavily populated area with high standard of living, and yet we have had power outages lasting up to a week in the years we've lived here. Almost all in the winter, but also some due to hurricanes. We have have solar, which is great in the summer heat, but not as wonderful in the winter. We have air source heat pump, but also oil furnace backup. We normally run the heat pump when its above 35F, as the efficiency of the heat pumps drops like a rock below 40F and its just not worth running below 35F. The heat pump is not an ancient POS. It works great 99% of the time, but 1% of 365 is 3.65 days per year. Banking on "most of the time" to be alright all of the time is foolish. We have diesel generator in case of power outage, which allows us to run the oil furnace using the same fuel as the furnace. This strategy has allowed us to ride through many 1% case scenarios without drama.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Your normal experience is far outside what most people in Europe would prepare for, so our comments on this thread should probably be ignored by North Americans. Looking at [1], I can see only two power cuts lasting more than 24 hours (Barcelona, 2007 and Cyprus, 2011). Instead, "major power cut" refers to things like "The power cut occurred at 4:20 pm and power was slowly restored between 5:20 and 6:30 pm." (Glasgow, 2009.) I can't remember being without power for more than 6 hours, and it's probably more like 3 or 4. I've been responsible for some colocated servers for about 8 years, and there's been one occasion where grid power was lost. That was about 20 minutes. A Raspberry Pi I have in a village in England has lost power once in the last three years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages
- nerdbert 4y ago
  > I live in a heavily populated area with high standard of living, and yet we have had power outages lasting up to a week in the years we've lived here. Maybe you are in the USA? The infrastructure situation seems to be different there. We don't have any above-ground power lines in this country (except for high-voltage long-distance transmission trunks) and in the past ten years the power has gone out exactly twice, according to my uptime logs - once for 40 minutes and once for about three hours.

poutine 4y ago

Living in the PNW, I'm building a new house and I've chosen a dual fuel hybrid heat pump system as per https://www.bryantbing.com/products/hybrid-heat/ https://www.bryantbing.com/products/hybrid-heat/ I'll also have solar + battery. Should be able to run the furnace & fan but not the heat pump (too many kW/h) during a power outage and thus heating with gas. It'll run off the heat pump for 90-95% of the year, only using gas on the coldest days, or during an outage. To go full heat pump for 100% of the year you need to seriously upsize the heat pump(s) and you wouldn't have performance during an outage.

pinot 4y ago
Can't heat with gas without electricity, unless you have a genset or power wall kind of thing to provide epower.
- poutine 4y ago
  I have a sol-ark 12k which allows for grid isolation and a bunch of batteries.
- nerdbert 4y ago
  Until a couple years ago we had a gas-fired tankless water heater which used a single D-cell battery for ignition, which had to be changed once every year or two. It wasn't connected to wall power at all.
  - alvah 4y ago
    There are, or used to be, Bosch tankless water heaters which used a small turbine connected to a piezo-electric igniter, no external power source required ever.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    But you need a blower or pump in order to circulate heat in a house. Hot water is better than nothing but it won't keep your fish from freezing.
4y ago

Scoundreller 4y ago

Since your natgas consumption is low, could a wood pellet heater meet your needs instead of natgas? I guess it depends if your natgas bill has a big fixed cost (and I guess you’ve already covered the sunk cost of connection…)

thomasjb 4y ago
A wood pellet heater can be a fairly complex item, for a backup (depending on what usage frequency backup entails) a wood fired furnace might be more suitable if the owner is happy with having to add fuel every once in a while. Myself, I would like a ground source system that lets me store in heat from an oil fired AGA, a wood burning furnace and water heater panels on the roof.