7 ms·

I always joke that in winter all appliances are 100% efficient (I know they're not). Some look at me funny but the ones who pay the gas bill get usually get it

I always joke that in winter all appliances are 100% efficient (I know they're not). Some look at me funny but the ones who pay the gas bill get usually get it.

tonyarkles 4y ago
And incandescent light bulbs!
- elil17 4y ago
  No, because the light can escape through windows.
  - maxk42 4y ago
    So can heat. That's not the appliance's fault.
    - elil17 4y ago
      It's not about fault at all - I'm just saying that the analysis does not apply to lightbulbs. For a lightbulb to be as efficient as a resistance furnace at heating a room, you would need to have zero light escape that room so that all the light would be converted to heat. Then, the heat would leave the room at the same rate as heat generated by a resistance furnace. Even if we consider incandescent light bulbs, which waste most of the energy they use as "heat", that heat is actually being transferred primarily through radiation, so it can escape through windows more easily than the heat that a furnace transfers to your indoor air.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Thermal infrared doesn't go through glass. You only lose a negligible amount of visible light. It's still 100% efficient as an integer percent.
        elil17 4y ago
        I assume by “thermal infrared” you mean the IR produced by approximately room temperature objects. Incandescent bulbs produce much higher energy infrared because the filament reaches about 2000 Celsius. Those higher energy waves can go through glass.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Right, that's true, I was thinking about it wrong. Still, not much is going to hit a window on average. So maybe 90% efficient.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        You do realize that burning natural gas for heat produces light as well right?
        elil17 4y ago
        Natural gas furnaces are designed to not let that light out. Instead, the light is absorbed by the surfaces of the furnace and turns into heat. The inefficiency in gas furnaces is heat leaving in the exhaust.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Resistive heaters lile a lightbulb are much less efficient than a heat pump. You'd still be better off with the led.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  The heat isn't where you want it.
ComputerGuru 4y ago
This is the first year where heating the home with gas isn't an order of magnitude cheaper than with electricity here in the Midwest. Gas still wins, but not by as large of a margin!
tshaddox 4y ago
“100% efficient” doesn’t tell the whole story of the gas bill if you’re heating your house with something cheaper than electric heat (e.g. natural gas).
elil17 4y ago
If you have a resistance electric furnace, that is essentially true. With gas, you add the electric generation and distribution losses, which is a pretty big difference. It does cost more to run an appliance than to heat with gas.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Gas boilers produce NO2, and other nasties - they do affect air quality in your house
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    How do they affect the air quality indoors? Don't modern (less than fifty years old) gas boilers have balanced flues so that they take in air from the outside and exhaust the combustion products outside too? Surely properly installed gas boilers always did that even without balanced flues too.
    - abakker 4y ago
      My experience (sample of one) is that they don't. They're supposed to, but VOCs are definitely higher all winter running heat than all summer running air conditioning. Natural gas combustion is at best _mostly_ exhausted.
      - elil17 4y ago
        It could also be that outdoor AQ is worse around you in the winter because everyone is running their boilers, and then that outdoor air ends up inside. I can't test it because I have a heat pump, but I would be curious to know what happens to your VOCs if you turn off your boiler at a time when your neighbors are still running theirs.
        abakker 4y ago
        My meter here in boulder, CO reads effectively 0 VOC outdoors all year round.
kibwen 4y ago
Of course, by the same token, in summer their efficiency is less than you expect since you need to consider the additional burden on your AC.
vanviegen 4y ago
I think 100% is pretty accurate for most devices, except for washing machines and other gadgets connected to the sewer. Where else would the energy go? Your fridge has the potential to go even higher than 100%, as it's a heat pump. But for more than a temporary effect you'd have to keep replacing the stuff inside it with stuff warmed up to outside temperate, which would have to be between fridge temperature and room temperature. Perhaps slightly impractical.
- tutorialmanager 4y ago
  Get buckets of water from your pool (or lake or well) and put them in the fridge till they cool down. Then dump the water outside and get a new bucketful). To save effort you could run 2 hoses with a small pump. You are now heating your house with a ground source heat pump. I really enjoyed reading The Homemade Heatpump Manifesto on Ecorenovator. https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=484 https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=484
briHass 4y ago
In the summer, my heat pump water heater in the basement is essentially 'free' to run, since most of the heat it captures is by condensing water in the air i.e. dehumidifying my basement. I still need a dehumidifier, but it doesn't have to run as hard.

I always joke that in winter all appliances are 100% efficient (I know they're not). Some look at me funny but the ones who pay the gas bill get usually get it.

tonyarkles 4y ago

And incandescent light bulbs!

elil17 4y ago
No, because the light can escape through windows.
- maxk42 4y ago
  So can heat. That's not the appliance's fault.
  - elil17 4y ago
    It's not about fault at all - I'm just saying that the analysis does not apply to lightbulbs. For a lightbulb to be as efficient as a resistance furnace at heating a room, you would need to have zero light escape that room so that all the light would be converted to heat. Then, the heat would leave the room at the same rate as heat generated by a resistance furnace. Even if we consider incandescent light bulbs, which waste most of the energy they use as "heat", that heat is actually being transferred primarily through radiation, so it can escape through windows more easily than the heat that a furnace transfers to your indoor air.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Thermal infrared doesn't go through glass. You only lose a negligible amount of visible light. It's still 100% efficient as an integer percent.
      - elil17 4y ago
        I assume by “thermal infrared” you mean the IR produced by approximately room temperature objects. Incandescent bulbs produce much higher energy infrared because the filament reaches about 2000 Celsius. Those higher energy waves can go through glass.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Right, that's true, I was thinking about it wrong. Still, not much is going to hit a window on average. So maybe 90% efficient.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      You do realize that burning natural gas for heat produces light as well right?
      - elil17 4y ago
        Natural gas furnaces are designed to not let that light out. Instead, the light is absorbed by the surfaces of the furnace and turns into heat. The inefficiency in gas furnaces is heat leaving in the exhaust.
galangalalgol 4y ago
Resistive heaters lile a lightbulb are much less efficient than a heat pump. You'd still be better off with the led.
stuaxo 4y ago
The heat isn't where you want it.

ComputerGuru 4y ago

This is the first year where heating the home with gas isn't an order of magnitude cheaper than with electricity here in the Midwest. Gas still wins, but not by as large of a margin!

tshaddox 4y ago

“100% efficient” doesn’t tell the whole story of the gas bill if you’re heating your house with something cheaper than electric heat (e.g. natural gas).

elil17 4y ago

If you have a resistance electric furnace, that is essentially true. With gas, you add the electric generation and distribution losses, which is a pretty big difference. It does cost more to run an appliance than to heat with gas.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Gas boilers produce NO2, and other nasties - they do affect air quality in your house
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  How do they affect the air quality indoors? Don't modern (less than fifty years old) gas boilers have balanced flues so that they take in air from the outside and exhaust the combustion products outside too? Surely properly installed gas boilers always did that even without balanced flues too.
  - abakker 4y ago
    My experience (sample of one) is that they don't. They're supposed to, but VOCs are definitely higher all winter running heat than all summer running air conditioning. Natural gas combustion is at best _mostly_ exhausted.
    - elil17 4y ago
      It could also be that outdoor AQ is worse around you in the winter because everyone is running their boilers, and then that outdoor air ends up inside. I can't test it because I have a heat pump, but I would be curious to know what happens to your VOCs if you turn off your boiler at a time when your neighbors are still running theirs.
      - abakker 4y ago
        My meter here in boulder, CO reads effectively 0 VOC outdoors all year round.

kibwen 4y ago

Of course, by the same token, in summer their efficiency is less than you expect since you need to consider the additional burden on your AC.

vanviegen 4y ago

I think 100% is pretty accurate for most devices, except for washing machines and other gadgets connected to the sewer. Where else would the energy go? Your fridge has the potential to go even higher than 100%, as it's a heat pump. But for more than a temporary effect you'd have to keep replacing the stuff inside it with stuff warmed up to outside temperate, which would have to be between fridge temperature and room temperature. Perhaps slightly impractical.

tutorialmanager 4y ago
Get buckets of water from your pool (or lake or well) and put them in the fridge till they cool down. Then dump the water outside and get a new bucketful). To save effort you could run 2 hoses with a small pump. You are now heating your house with a ground source heat pump. I really enjoyed reading The Homemade Heatpump Manifesto on Ecorenovator. https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=484 https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=484

briHass 4y ago

In the summer, my heat pump water heater in the basement is essentially 'free' to run, since most of the heat it captures is by condensing water in the air i.e. dehumidifying my basement. I still need a dehumidifier, but it doesn't have to run as hard.