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The downside to life in a supertall tower (2021)
- simonebrunozzi 4y agohttps://archive.ph/CtdNi https://archive.ph/CtdNi
- Qem 4y agoTo have a heart attack, or any other emergency health condition in a high floor is surely a death sentence. By the time help arrives and people manage to hush you through the elevators/stairs, you're gone.
- rsynnott 4y agoI mean, less so than living outside a city, surely? Most of the time is going to be for the paramedics to get to the building in any case.
- slackfan 4y agoWell, 7 minute absolute best case ambulance response time to the scene, another 7-10 minutes to do the elevator ride, potentially twice if the patient is immobile, then another 10-30 minutes to get to the hospital. Vs in a small town ambulance response time is about the same, and travel to the local hospital is also about the same. But there are no elevator rides. Vs living in the actual boonies (connecticut is a tiny state that is primarily suburbia), where you just assume ambulances dont exist, you keep and know how to use a proper medkit, and you know where the nearest and farthest ERs are, and most importantly - you do not live alone.
- rsynnott 4y ago> another 7-10 minutes to do the elevator ride Really?! This sounds _very_ high. > then another 10-30 minutes to get to the hospital. This also sounds pretty high. Looks like there's a general hospital literally 500m away in this case. > in a small town ambulance response time is about the same, and travel to the local hospital is also about the same It's going to depend on the small town, but I would assume that most small towns are _not_ within 30 mins of a general hospital. Of course, depending on what's wrong with you, something less than a general hospital might work, but then again it might not.
- slackfan 4y agoNow try driving the 500m to your local hospital.
- CPLX 4y agoWhat a strange comment. Somehow being about half a mile from the most sophisticated collection of medical facilities on the planet, plus an unusually long elevator ride, is more of a death sentence then like being on a farm in Connecticut or something?
- slackfan 4y agoTravel times are what they are, and instant teleportation has not been invented yet
- Qem 4y agohttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10903120590891679?journalCode=ipec20 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1090312059089167...
- xboxnolifes 4y agoThis is comparing different floors in the same building, not highrise vs small town. And it's showing a difference of less than 2 minutes.
- MrBuddyCasino 4y agoThis is one of the developers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_B._Macklowe#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_B._Macklowe#Criticism I'll never understand how they let such people ruin the skyline by building such ugly skyscrapers. No respect whatsoever for the surrounding style, regardless of taste.
- CPLX 4y agoThe NYC skyline was ruined by a couple more very tall buildings? How exactly would you describe this “surrounding style”: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:West_side_of_Manhattan_from_Hudson_Commons_(95103p).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:West_side_of_Manhatt...
- AstixAndBelix 4y agoI bet the "surrouding style" was itself criticized at the time those older buildings were build because it didn't respect the previous "surrounding style". This argument for tradition doesn't really work if you know history
- keiferski 4y agoI’d be curious to know the maximum height of a skyscraper that doesn’t have these issues with draining or elevators. Or is the height not actually a problem, only the design of this particular building? Central Park Tower and three others are taller than the one mentioned in the article, although they hint that other towers have similar issues.
- causality0 4y agoIt unironically depends on the weather. Specifically the wind. If weight was the only issue we could build towers multiple kilometers high.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoStupid question: If you had sensor good enough, could you build active structures, that anticipate the forces of the wind and angle themselves to "lean" into it, neutralizing the forces at play?
- lelanthran 4y agoI don't see a problem with anticipation i.e. detect the prevailing forces and apply an equal but opposite force. I DO see a problem with making the strength on each corner of a building dynamic - if you aren't moving the building back and forth to counter the wind, how would you counter the wind?
- bombcar 4y agoOne option (almost certainly not practical) would be to have the building shaped like a giant vertical wing, and have it rotate into the wind. It could be tuned to be resistant to wind forces by directing it around, but the apartments may face a different way each day.
- cjrp 4y agoHah, a bit like the roof of an oast house. I like it.
- pavlov 4y ago“Everybody hates each other here.” That reminded me of J. G. Ballard’s “High-Rise”, a 1970s novel with a unique twist on the post-apocalyptic landscape familiar from scifi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Rise_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Rise_(novel)
- keiferski 4y agoDecent book, but personally I found it like a lot of Ballard’s other work: fascinating concept that somehow didn’t turn into an interesting story. It just emphasizes how a cool idea doesn’t replace storytelling skills.
- FpUser 4y agoI found Ballard's works strangely attractive. Definitely not because of "fascinating concepts" or some superb writing skills but because of the mood they project. I keep coming back every once in a while.
- pavlov 4y agoSame for me. I can certainly understand why someone wouldn’t like Ballard’s novels. The plotting isn’t necessarily memorable. But there’s something unique in the combination where both the physical landscapes and the characters’ mental landscapes are simultaneously tormented and transformed. I often think of the TV producer in “High-Rise” driving back from work to his apartment building, his mind taken over by the alternate cosmos inside the building as he moves through the parking lot. It’s a strong image for me. But I’m sure other Ballard readers have completely different touchpoints in the same work.
- jahnu 4y agoI love this novel so much. From the opening paragraph the tone is set!
- j1elo 4y agoI find it extremely ironic that people would be able to pay for "one of the wealthiest addresses in the world" and still in turn obtain a subpar experience.
- Nextgrid 4y agoThere's a grifter for every budget.
- j1elo 4y agoNot only that but we talk about the bait-and-switch that is common practice by some companies, and this reminded me of that too: > When the building opened in late 2015, homeowners were required to spend $1,200 a year on [the building’s private Michelin-star level restaurant]; in 2021, that requirement jumps to $15,000, despite limited hours of operation because of the pandemic. And breakfast is no longer free. Well, that sounds like quite the spike in service prices! Especially if it's a required expense.
- linuxftw 4y agoThis is essentially the condo experience almost anywhere. You 'buy' a unit, and then it's a non-stop parade of rising fees and special assessments.
- phreeza 4y agoCan you explain how this happens to me as a non-american? I own an apartment in a multi apartment complex (so I guess that would be called a condo in the US?) and together with the other owners we have an association and we vote on stuff once a year, including anything that causes expenses. Is there some external party that makes these decisions in the US?
- taylorhou 4y agoMany associations in America are managed by a third party. That association manager has a different incentive/goal versus the board which is to profit from the association. This is just the first level of disagreement.
- luxurytent 4y agoIt's clear that we don't need supertalls but rather they are a mechanism for the most rich and corrupt (including the builder) to launder money.
- credit_guy 4y agoHow exactly do you launder money by buying a super-luxury apartment? Let's say you are a druglord from Mexico, and have a minivan full with one hundred dollar bills. You want to come and buy a 100 million apartment in NYC. How do you imagine that transaction will happen? Do you think the building developer will just agree to take the bills? And then they'll go to their bank and attempt to deposit it? How will the real estate broker get their fee? In bills too? Here's the thing: in this country, if you agree to take large amounts of cash, no questions asked, and then try to deposit them at a bank, you just painted a huge bull's eye on you, as far as the US law enforcement is concerned. At a minimum you become an accessory to money laundering.
- guntherhermann 4y agoYou don't think all these owned, yet empty luxury apartments in cities isn't money laundering? Give me your occam's razor version then, because that's my take (and clearly many other people think the same). What's the most likely explanation? In the UK there are loads of examples of this. Maybe the US is miles ahead of the UK on this, but somehow I doubt it. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-laundering-in-property https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-lau... > Money laundering through property is a major problem And the example you give of a van full of cash is naive. That isn't how it goes down, and if I'm honest, I think you know that.
- danaris 4y agoI suspect you may be falling victim to the problem shown in XKCD 2501 [0]: "Well, I've paid a lot of attention to it, so I know all about money laundering, but the average person probably only knows one, maybe two basic methods." "And that a van full of cash never works, of course." "Of course!" [0] https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
- asah 4y agoI'm a board member and observer in two luxury low-rise buildings in NYC, and both have these kinds of problems, irrespective of their height. What causes $500,000 in water damage is having $100,000 custom paint jobs, which has nothing to do with height.
- iso1631 4y agoBuilding sway trapping people in elevators, or putting them out of use?
- bilbo0s 4y agoThere are a myriad number of ways to get $500000 in damage. No question. You're also correct in your assertion that a lot of downsides have nothing to do with supertalls. I think the author was just talking about issues that crop up in supertalls. I didn't take away any explicit assertion that issues don't crop up in low or medium rises for instance.
- tromp 4y agoWouldn't supertalls need much higher water pressure to reach top floors, resulting in both higher chance of ruptures and larger spills in such cases?
- jmyeet 4y agoA really important point: > The group commissioned SBI Consultants, an engineering firm, to study mechanical and structural issues. Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings, and that almost a quarter “presented actual life safety issues,” Mr. Slinin wrote. Corruption exists at every level. The builder (as suggested by the above quote) skimped to increase their profit margins. These ultra-luxury NYC supertalls do not pay their fair share of property tax (as a percentage of price). Cities allow substandard buildings to be built (eg [1][2] not being drilled into bedrock). The city is allowing buildings to be built that are really too skinny (eg [3]). Real estate in major cities is driven by money laundering [4]. Real estate is exempt from a lot of foreign asset reporting like FATCA. All this while we're having a housing and affordability crisis pretty much everywhere. These supertall and skinny buildings just shouldn't be built. If you can't secure enough land to a decent base to go that high well that's your problem. Housing for the ultra-wealthy really needs to be taxed at probably 10x the current rate too. [1]: https://boingboing.net/2022/12/30/not-to-be-outdone-manhattan-has-a-leaning-skyscraper-full-of-multimillion-dollar-condos-too.html https://boingboing.net/2022/12/30/not-to-be-outdone-manhatta... [2]: https://sf.curbed.com/2016/9/16/12945600/why-millennium-tower-sinking https://sf.curbed.com/2016/9/16/12945600/why-millennium-towe... [3]: https://hyperallergic.com/724360/nyc-skyscraper-is-being-compared-to-a-coffee-stirrer/ https://hyperallergic.com/724360/nyc-skyscraper-is-being-com... [4]: https://gfintegrity.org/press-release/new-report-finds-u-s-real-estate-sector-a-safe-haven-for-money-laundering/ https://gfintegrity.org/press-release/new-report-finds-u-s-r...
- gadders 4y agoDon't ever let people tell you only software has bugs. After watching "snagging" [1] videos on TikTok, I'll never buy a new house again: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_list
- simonebrunozzi 4y agoWow, you have opened a world for me. What would be the best way to search for these videos? Just "snagging" or are there other keywords I should use? Is Tiktok the best way to find such videos?
- gadders 4y agoI think #snagging works for TikTok.
- tromp 4y ago> Both events occurred on mechanical floors that have been criticized for being excessively tall — a design feature that allowed the developers to build higher than would otherwise have been permitted, because mechanical floors do not count against the building’s allowable size. I've never heard of an allowable size expressed in terms of number of non-mechanical floors. That sounds rather ill-conceived. Why would you have limits beyond a plain maximum height ?
- bloomingeek 4y agoI was once a building engineer in a building of only 42 floors. When there was a wind storm the building swayed quite a bit. It groaned and chandeliers tinkled. On first opening there were the usual plumbing and cosmetic problems, which were repaired in a reasonable time frame. If these new owners say they didn't know there would be these "problems", they are either misinformed or trying to get their money back. ALL tall, thin building have to sway to survive.
- petodo 4y agoI can't honestly imagine upsides of living in anything above few floors, all I see are only downsides.