3 ms·

> how did anti-trust regulator react In Canada, our anti-trust regulator is completely feckless and captured by industry.

by voisin 4y ago

ivan_gammel 4y ago
Time for voters to wake up.
- voisin 4y ago
  Sounds good, but what should they do once woken up? Vote PC? NDP/Liberal alliance? Bloc? There is literally no one that wouldn’t ultimately bow to corporate interests (source: our entire history). We don’t have Bernie Sanders or AOC equivalents.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    And Canada never had a revolution, so the core theme of its laws are still rooted in how to keep some wealthy family's do-nothing ancestors wealthy without doing anything useful.
janetacarr 4y ago
> In Canada, our anti-trust regulator is completely feckless and captured by industry. For non-Canadians, this is by design, our government carved out NAFTA-exempt industries (Grocers, Dairy, Telecom, and Banking) during NAFTA negotiations, subsequently creating protected industries from which we now have oligopolies.
- voisin 4y ago
  I didn’t know this. When you say they were carved out, you mean carved out from being forced to allow other NAFTA member companies from entering the market at all? Or exempt from having to ensure anti-trust approval would meet international standards?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Effectively both. NAFTA and other trade agreements often let foreign corps initiate trade decisions that normally only a government could invoke. TransCanada is doing that against the US Gov for cancelling a pipeline project. The company will probably lose, but so much $ is at stake, so it makes sense to try.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  They were always exempt from competition. We also didn't bother to open them up as a part of NAFTA, CETA, Canada-SK, etc. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/temporary-residents/foreign-workers/international-free-trade-agreements.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... Grocery itself has more competition than the rest (thank you Walmart), which is why you gotta be careful when making US shopping trips. I've found rice, oils, canned beans/tomatoes, carrots, bananas, potatoes, onions all cheaper in Canada. And every year, I get more and more non-perishable grocery stuff from Amazon.ca Fun fact: Canadians can import non-prescription meds by mail, officially up to 90d supply (so I address it to "Family Scoundreller"), so I cruise ebay for a lot of that stuff.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > Fun fact: Canadians can import non-prescription meds by mail I am jealous of Americans and their 10,000IU Vitamin D pills. Canada limits the same to 1,000IU per pill. Would this be allowed to cross the border or no?
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Officially, no. If you're travelling yourself by car/air/rail/sea, it's incredibly unlikely the officer will even know there's a difference. Looking up the prescription regulations, only >2500 IU requires a prescription, so if you can find 2500s to import, that's over-the-counter and can be lawfully imported for 90d personal use. https://www.napra.ca/national-drug-schedules/?_nds_drug_name=vitamin https://www.napra.ca/national-drug-schedules/?_nds_drug_name... If you try to have 10000s mailed from USA by USPS, there's a very rare chance that it could be reviewed by Health Canada and they would deem it prescription-only and seize it, or they could "use their discretion" and still let it through anyway because seizing is a lot more paperwork. Don't bother with UPS or Fedex shipping into Canada. Ever. Note: if you're in Canada on a work/study permit, there are some exemptions allowing you to import non-narcotic prescription medications.
      - 4y ago
bawolff 4y ago
As a canadian who lives within walking distance of about 6 different grocery stores (3 major chains and some smaller independent stores), i think things are just fine.
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  Congratulations, you are in the minority...
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I mean, i do live in vancouver. If you live somewhere rural i'm sure you have less options but what do you really expect?
- voisin 4y ago
  Having options of places to go to pay essentially the same price doesn’t feel fine to me. We’ve got four major chains within a 5 minute drive and two very small independents, and the prices at the chains are all within a few percent of each other unless you want to mix and match each week for the various items on sale. This would normally mean that the market had found the equilibrium price that eliminates excess profits but, like our telecom industry, there are record profits. The variety of options is just for show, masking the inherent price fixing by the oligopoly.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I mean, it seems pretty disputed that there actually is record profits. E.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/9098447/canada-inflation-grocers-profits/ https://globalnews.ca/news/9098447/canada-inflation-grocers-...
    - voisin 4y ago
      This link just shows that the profit margin hasn’t increased. Record high profits occur when record high sales occur even if the profit margin is constant. This link also only looks at gross margin - if revenues and gross profit increase, their fixed operating costs (rent for example is usually fixed for 10-20 years for grocers, or the site is owned by the grocer) are now spread over higher sales so their operating profit (EBIT or EBITDA) can increased dramatically.
buildingsramen 4y ago
I'm not disagreeing per se, but you may be interested to listen to this interview with the Competition Commissioner for more perspective. My takeaway is that it's the laws, not the enforcers, that need to change: https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/monopoly-7-canadas-competition-cop/ https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/monopoly-7-canadas-compet...
- voisin 4y ago
  Great interview, thanks for sharing. I don't doubt that he wants things to change. When I refer to the Competition Bureau being feckless and captured by industry, I suppose the conclusion is correct but it should be applied upstream of the Bureau, with the lawmakers themselves enforcing the fecklessness, due to being captured by industry. Thanks for sharing!

> how did anti-trust regulator react In Canada, our anti-trust regulator is completely feckless and captured by industry.

by voisin 4y ago

> how did anti-trust regulator react In Canada, our anti-trust regulator is completely feckless and captured by industry.

ivan_gammel 4y ago

Time for voters to wake up.

voisin 4y ago
Sounds good, but what should they do once woken up? Vote PC? NDP/Liberal alliance? Bloc? There is literally no one that wouldn’t ultimately bow to corporate interests (source: our entire history). We don’t have Bernie Sanders or AOC equivalents.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  And Canada never had a revolution, so the core theme of its laws are still rooted in how to keep some wealthy family's do-nothing ancestors wealthy without doing anything useful.

janetacarr 4y ago

> In Canada, our anti-trust regulator is completely feckless and captured by industry. For non-Canadians, this is by design, our government carved out NAFTA-exempt industries (Grocers, Dairy, Telecom, and Banking) during NAFTA negotiations, subsequently creating protected industries from which we now have oligopolies.

voisin 4y ago
I didn’t know this. When you say they were carved out, you mean carved out from being forced to allow other NAFTA member companies from entering the market at all? Or exempt from having to ensure anti-trust approval would meet international standards?
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Effectively both. NAFTA and other trade agreements often let foreign corps initiate trade decisions that normally only a government could invoke. TransCanada is doing that against the US Gov for cancelling a pipeline project. The company will probably lose, but so much $ is at stake, so it makes sense to try.
Scoundreller 4y ago
They were always exempt from competition. We also didn't bother to open them up as a part of NAFTA, CETA, Canada-SK, etc. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/temporary-residents/foreign-workers/international-free-trade-agreements.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... Grocery itself has more competition than the rest (thank you Walmart), which is why you gotta be careful when making US shopping trips. I've found rice, oils, canned beans/tomatoes, carrots, bananas, potatoes, onions all cheaper in Canada. And every year, I get more and more non-perishable grocery stuff from Amazon.ca Fun fact: Canadians can import non-prescription meds by mail, officially up to 90d supply (so I address it to "Family Scoundreller"), so I cruise ebay for a lot of that stuff.
- voisin 4y ago
  > Fun fact: Canadians can import non-prescription meds by mail I am jealous of Americans and their 10,000IU Vitamin D pills. Canada limits the same to 1,000IU per pill. Would this be allowed to cross the border or no?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Officially, no. If you're travelling yourself by car/air/rail/sea, it's incredibly unlikely the officer will even know there's a difference. Looking up the prescription regulations, only >2500 IU requires a prescription, so if you can find 2500s to import, that's over-the-counter and can be lawfully imported for 90d personal use. https://www.napra.ca/national-drug-schedules/?_nds_drug_name=vitamin https://www.napra.ca/national-drug-schedules/?_nds_drug_name... If you try to have 10000s mailed from USA by USPS, there's a very rare chance that it could be reviewed by Health Canada and they would deem it prescription-only and seize it, or they could "use their discretion" and still let it through anyway because seizing is a lot more paperwork. Don't bother with UPS or Fedex shipping into Canada. Ever. Note: if you're in Canada on a work/study permit, there are some exemptions allowing you to import non-narcotic prescription medications.
    - 4y ago

bawolff 4y ago

As a canadian who lives within walking distance of about 6 different grocery stores (3 major chains and some smaller independent stores), i think things are just fine.

JimtheCoder 4y ago
Congratulations, you are in the minority...
- bawolff 4y ago
  I mean, i do live in vancouver. If you live somewhere rural i'm sure you have less options but what do you really expect?
voisin 4y ago
Having options of places to go to pay essentially the same price doesn’t feel fine to me. We’ve got four major chains within a 5 minute drive and two very small independents, and the prices at the chains are all within a few percent of each other unless you want to mix and match each week for the various items on sale. This would normally mean that the market had found the equilibrium price that eliminates excess profits but, like our telecom industry, there are record profits. The variety of options is just for show, masking the inherent price fixing by the oligopoly.
- bawolff 4y ago
  I mean, it seems pretty disputed that there actually is record profits. E.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/9098447/canada-inflation-grocers-profits/ https://globalnews.ca/news/9098447/canada-inflation-grocers-...
  - voisin 4y ago
    This link just shows that the profit margin hasn’t increased. Record high profits occur when record high sales occur even if the profit margin is constant. This link also only looks at gross margin - if revenues and gross profit increase, their fixed operating costs (rent for example is usually fixed for 10-20 years for grocers, or the site is owned by the grocer) are now spread over higher sales so their operating profit (EBIT or EBITDA) can increased dramatically.

buildingsramen 4y ago

I'm not disagreeing per se, but you may be interested to listen to this interview with the Competition Commissioner for more perspective. My takeaway is that it's the laws, not the enforcers, that need to change: https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/monopoly-7-canadas-competition-cop/ https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/monopoly-7-canadas-compet...

voisin 4y ago
Great interview, thanks for sharing. I don't doubt that he wants things to change. When I refer to the Competition Bureau being feckless and captured by industry, I suppose the conclusion is correct but it should be applied upstream of the Bureau, with the lawmakers themselves enforcing the fecklessness, due to being captured by industry. Thanks for sharing!