8 ms·

NYPD can use more than 15,000 cameras to track people using facial recognition

138 points by raybb 4y ago

raybb 4y ago
> our modelling suggests have the capacity to track faces from as far as 200 metres away (or up to 2 blocks). Does anyone know how true this is? I watched the video and it's pretty convincing but compared to the security footage so often seen in the news this seems like it would be insanely high resolution.
- _Algernon_ 4y ago
  I thought such footage is bad quality because nobody wants to store months of 4k footage of tarmac. Maybe they process it immediately for facial recognition, then store a lower resolution version? Or they just use AI "enhancement" and pretend they got the right guy.
  - tylerag 4y ago
    Or just use AI to detect faces (without recognizing them), and store the high resolution faces for later processing.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      They don't really care who citizen <random alphanumeric string> is until they get uppity at which point they'll figure out who's name to put on the arrest warrant. Cheaper to process now and store the row in the DB than store the whole images for years.
- brk 4y ago
  See my other comment, it's basically not true at all, IMO.
booleandilemma 4y ago
Great. And they still can't catch that guy who robbed the bodega on the corner, and people casually ride the subway without paying every day. NYC's latest shooter turned himself in, the cops couldn't even handle that: https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-police-search-gunman-brooklyn-subway-shooting/story?id=84051890 https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-police-search-gunman-brooklyn-...
- caditinpiscinam 4y ago
  Public transit should be free
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - Benjammer 4y ago
      Do you say this about the road crews who build and maintain public streets and highways? What about the parks department? Should I pay a fee to enter Central Park for the day? Why can't public transit be a government service? Does everything need to be financialized?
    - ninkendo 4y ago
      We can't operate it on love, hugs, and hope, but we can probably operate it on tax dollars.
      - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
        So then, it isn't free. You just want someone else to pay for it.
        DangitBobby 4y ago
        Or everyone, in this case.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
6177c40f 4y ago
Has anyone ever done research to see if pervasive use of facial recognition has any real effect on reducing crime?
- sosborn 4y ago
  It's not really about decreasing crime. It's really about increasing convictions (for better or worse).
  - medler 4y ago
    This is the part I don’t understand. In the past decades surveillance tech has become more pervasive, and police funding has continued to increase. Yet the percent of homicides “cleared” by police has dropped from 90% to 50% over the past 50 years. All this surveillance, and somehow police continue getting worse at solving crimes
    - noodlesUK 4y ago
      I’m curious as to what elements of policing have been the beneficiaries of increased funding. I’d love to see a budget and staffing breakdown of a police department from the 70s to now. I have a sneaking suspicion that it’s not the investigative side that’s grown hugely. I may well be wrong though, and just showing my bias.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      It's possible that people are getting better at committing crimes at a faster rate than police are getting better at solving crimes. Maybe if we teleported today's average police department to the 1800s, the % of cleared homicides would be 100%. Who knows.
      - runnerup 4y ago
        My guess is the increased evidence is lowering false convictions but it’s probably still very hard to find and prove the correct perpetrators.
sschueller 4y ago
I am so glad many cities and even Cantons in Switzerland have decided that such a thing should not be permitted. [1] Such a distopian future is not something people want anywhere. I assume it is still legal in NYC to wear clothing or head gear that would make face recognition difficult if not impossible? [1] https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge
- x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
  The normalization of face-masks in public have been amazing for aiding anonymity.
  - kwere 4y ago
    too bad one can be identified also from the way they walks [0] [0]https://www.cnet.com/science/china-surveillance-tech-ids-people-by-their-walk https://www.cnet.com/science/china-surveillance-tech-ids-peo...
    - x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
      I don't think there's a nationwide database of walking gate fingerprints facilitated by your local DMVs.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    Not if they apply https://github.com/topics/gait-analysis https://github.com/topics/gait-analysis & https://github.com/topics/gait-recognition https://github.com/topics/gait-recognition https://securitytoday.com/articles/2018/11/12/new-surveillance-tool-gait-recognition.aspx https://securitytoday.com/articles/2018/11/12/new-surveillan... https://recfaces.com/articles/what-is-gait-recognition https://recfaces.com/articles/what-is-gait-recognition If they (can) do so ATM (at large scale and in real time) is another matter, but only a question of time, IMO.
    - _Algernon_ 4y ago
brk 4y ago
FTFA: "Data on commercial cameras available at the time suggest that it is likely to be a Pan, Tilt, and Zoom (PTZ) model containing a 6–134 mm varifocal lens able to film at 4K or 8 megapixel resolution." This is so wildly inaccurate that it really makes this whole thing seem highly suspicious. The average CCTV camera in a municipal deployment, especially ones from several years ago, would be a fixed 1080p camera with an adjustable 4-8mm lens, which is set at a fixed focal point upon installation. In other words, not a PTZ, not a long range lens. The mounting height is usually 10+ feet high, which overall makes it really poor for face recognition purposes. This is not to say that many of these cameras cannot capture at least some faces with a level of detail that is sufficient for face-rec, but this camera network is nowhere near the ability to track a person/their movements throughout the city.
- bberenberg 4y ago
  Based on being on an NYC grand jury where we had to watch a fair amount of NYPD submitted surveillance footage: - NYPD uses PTZ, and the mount points aren't always fixed. They're also on poles which are connected to a mobile platform that is then deployed onto sidewalks / in parks etc. - Ability to track across multiple cameras exists today (this is intended to address density of cameras, not how tracking is done). However, there was no clear indication how automated this was. We were simply shown "Suspect on camera 1, and then you see them leave frame, and here they are on camera 2" - Faces could be seen fairly clearly even at night in a decently lit park setting. My gut feel was that as the hardware improves, 100% automated tracking of everyone is only a question of when.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  New Haven, the city where Yale is and a much poorer city than NYC had PTZ surveillance cameras deployed when I lived there close to a decade ago. Cities can afford PTZ cameras and the backends to store mountains of high quality footage, the average small town municipality can't
  - brk 4y ago
    There will almost always be some PTZs, but they are more of the exception than the rule. Also, when they are PTZs, they will tend to have smaller imagers and be 1080p max in previous eras (4K is more common in the last couple of years). The assumption that article makes about these cameras all likely to be 4K or 8K PTZs with the longest lens options is just absolutely wrong.
qwezxcrty 4y ago
Cities in Mainland China have comparable density of cameras, if not more. And there's no mechanism to stop the police or the Chinese three letter agencies using them for facial recognition. Pretty scary.
walterbell 4y ago
NYC has several thousand LinkNYC kiosks run by Google's Sidewalk Labs, located on major streets, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18024123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18024123 & https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation-videos.htm https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation... > Each kiosk has three cameras, 30 sensors, and heightened sight lines for viewing above crowds ... According to privacy watchdogs, the rollout of the kiosk’s cameras have shown how the mission has already expanded beyond its initial purview. In 2016, LinkNYC disclosed that the kiosks “may” contain cameras; by 2017, the cameras were operational. LinkNYC’s privacy policy states that cameras do not keep video records for more than seven days and that the camera footage is used to “improve the services.” But opting out is not an option: Just by walking down the block, it is possible to be swept into its audio or video feeds, which can capture a nearly 360-degree view of their surroundings. The new LinkNYC kiosks include a sizable 5G antenna, https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/nyregion/nyc-5g-towers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/nyregion/nyc-5g-towers.ht... > A curiously futuristic tower recently appeared on the corner of Putnam and Bedford Avenues in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn. A gray column topped by a perforated casing, at a whopping 32 feet tall, it reaches higher than the three-story brick building behind it ... a cylindrical object roughly the size of a human being: a 5G antenna that is 63 inches tall and 21 inches in diameter, according to the company. It is accompanied by a box that is 38 inches high, 16 inches wide and 14 inches deep — about the size of a filing cabinet or a night stand.
- jmkb 4y ago
  Currently only 2009 LinkNYCs, according to https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Social-Services/LinkNYC-Map/tgrn-h24f https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Social-Services/LinkNYC-Map/tg... My assumption is that these kiosks log all wifi and bluetooth traffic from nearby persons and vehicles, and USB device IDs of anything plugged in for charging. And of course the new ones will be logging 5G signals as well. Maybe there's not yet a centralized effort to coordinate these logs with the camera feeds to map people's physical appearance to their electronic footprints, but I can't imagine it isn't somewhere on the roadmap.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
London Sez: "15,000 cameras? Heh. That's cute. Hold my lager."
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  (Hold my bitter more like, lager is more popular in the US :) )
jahnu 4y ago
Reminded of Person of Interest Pretty entertaining show actually.
- gaetgu 4y ago
  I came here to say this. As time goes on I see more and more real tech that mirrors what is in the show, albeit without a controlling super-AI behind it all.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Palantir has access to quite a few databases, including health records, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34149508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34149508
nemo44x 4y ago
On one hand it might allow for softer and safer police practices. With ample video evidence and AI to recognize suspects, they can be apprehended at a time and place that’s safer for everyone. End of the day this is the price being paid for unfettered rioting and the increase in petty crime since then. There’s just no way that is going to be allowed to happen again. Extensive camera networks and AI will deliver summary reports of top suspects that police will be assigned to apprehend with real-time location data sent to nearest units hours, days, or even months after the crime. They might not get you for a few small shop lifting infractions but the cameras will watch and record and once you cross a threshold ($1000 In property?) you’ll make it into the summary report and face justice.
IanDrake 4y ago
[dead]
algog 4y ago
Is the MTA doing this at its subway turnstiles? Everyday I see people just walk thru the open gates or jump right thru without paying. I feel like a chump for paying.
mdni007 4y ago
Another reason to mask up
Havoc 4y ago
Does seem like the west is essentially moving in the same direction as China on this topic, just less overtly
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Awareness_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Awareness_System
account4mypc 4y ago
Anecdotally, NYC feels less safe than it has ever felt (in my 20+ yrs of being here). Most of the issues are not reportable crimes/would not be taken seriously by today's NYPD e.g. verbal harassment on the street, following, punching, etc. So while i'm sure i'm in the minority, i hope this leads to more policing.
MrMan 4y ago
we need cameras everywhere, this is a good start

138 points by raybb 4y ago

> our modelling suggests have the capacity to track faces from as far as 200 metres away (or up to 2 blocks). Does anyone know how true this is? I watched the video and it's pretty convincing but compared to the security footage so often seen in the news this seems like it would be insanely high resolution.

_Algernon_ 4y ago
I thought such footage is bad quality because nobody wants to store months of 4k footage of tarmac. Maybe they process it immediately for facial recognition, then store a lower resolution version? Or they just use AI "enhancement" and pretend they got the right guy.
- tylerag 4y ago
  Or just use AI to detect faces (without recognizing them), and store the high resolution faces for later processing.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    They don't really care who citizen <random alphanumeric string> is until they get uppity at which point they'll figure out who's name to put on the arrest warrant. Cheaper to process now and store the row in the DB than store the whole images for years.
brk 4y ago
See my other comment, it's basically not true at all, IMO.

booleandilemma 4y ago

Great. And they still can't catch that guy who robbed the bodega on the corner, and people casually ride the subway without paying every day. NYC's latest shooter turned himself in, the cops couldn't even handle that: https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-police-search-gunman-brooklyn-subway-shooting/story?id=84051890 https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-police-search-gunman-brooklyn-...

caditinpiscinam 4y ago
Public transit should be free
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Benjammer 4y ago
    Do you say this about the road crews who build and maintain public streets and highways? What about the parks department? Should I pay a fee to enter Central Park for the day? Why can't public transit be a government service? Does everything need to be financialized?
  - ninkendo 4y ago
    We can't operate it on love, hugs, and hope, but we can probably operate it on tax dollars.
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      So then, it isn't free. You just want someone else to pay for it.
      - DangitBobby 4y ago
        Or everyone, in this case.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

6177c40f 4y ago

Has anyone ever done research to see if pervasive use of facial recognition has any real effect on reducing crime?

sosborn 4y ago
It's not really about decreasing crime. It's really about increasing convictions (for better or worse).
- medler 4y ago
  This is the part I don’t understand. In the past decades surveillance tech has become more pervasive, and police funding has continued to increase. Yet the percent of homicides “cleared” by police has dropped from 90% to 50% over the past 50 years. All this surveillance, and somehow police continue getting worse at solving crimes
  - noodlesUK 4y ago
    I’m curious as to what elements of policing have been the beneficiaries of increased funding. I’d love to see a budget and staffing breakdown of a police department from the 70s to now. I have a sneaking suspicion that it’s not the investigative side that’s grown hugely. I may well be wrong though, and just showing my bias.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    It's possible that people are getting better at committing crimes at a faster rate than police are getting better at solving crimes. Maybe if we teleported today's average police department to the 1800s, the % of cleared homicides would be 100%. Who knows.
    - runnerup 4y ago
      My guess is the increased evidence is lowering false convictions but it’s probably still very hard to find and prove the correct perpetrators.

sschueller 4y ago

I am so glad many cities and even Cantons in Switzerland have decided that such a thing should not be permitted. [1] Such a distopian future is not something people want anywhere. I assume it is still legal in NYC to wear clothing or head gear that would make face recognition difficult if not impossible? [1] https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge https://www.gesichtserkennung-stoppen.ch/news/grosse-erfolge

x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
The normalization of face-masks in public have been amazing for aiding anonymity.
- kwere 4y ago
  too bad one can be identified also from the way they walks [0] [0]https://www.cnet.com/science/china-surveillance-tech-ids-people-by-their-walk https://www.cnet.com/science/china-surveillance-tech-ids-peo...
  - x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
    I don't think there's a nationwide database of walking gate fingerprints facilitated by your local DMVs.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Not if they apply https://github.com/topics/gait-analysis https://github.com/topics/gait-analysis & https://github.com/topics/gait-recognition https://github.com/topics/gait-recognition https://securitytoday.com/articles/2018/11/12/new-surveillance-tool-gait-recognition.aspx https://securitytoday.com/articles/2018/11/12/new-surveillan... https://recfaces.com/articles/what-is-gait-recognition https://recfaces.com/articles/what-is-gait-recognition If they (can) do so ATM (at large scale and in real time) is another matter, but only a question of time, IMO.
  - _Algernon_ 4y ago

brk 4y ago

FTFA: "Data on commercial cameras available at the time suggest that it is likely to be a Pan, Tilt, and Zoom (PTZ) model containing a 6–134 mm varifocal lens able to film at 4K or 8 megapixel resolution." This is so wildly inaccurate that it really makes this whole thing seem highly suspicious. The average CCTV camera in a municipal deployment, especially ones from several years ago, would be a fixed 1080p camera with an adjustable 4-8mm lens, which is set at a fixed focal point upon installation. In other words, not a PTZ, not a long range lens. The mounting height is usually 10+ feet high, which overall makes it really poor for face recognition purposes. This is not to say that many of these cameras cannot capture at least some faces with a level of detail that is sufficient for face-rec, but this camera network is nowhere near the ability to track a person/their movements throughout the city.

bberenberg 4y ago
Based on being on an NYC grand jury where we had to watch a fair amount of NYPD submitted surveillance footage: - NYPD uses PTZ, and the mount points aren't always fixed. They're also on poles which are connected to a mobile platform that is then deployed onto sidewalks / in parks etc. - Ability to track across multiple cameras exists today (this is intended to address density of cameras, not how tracking is done). However, there was no clear indication how automated this was. We were simply shown "Suspect on camera 1, and then you see them leave frame, and here they are on camera 2" - Faces could be seen fairly clearly even at night in a decently lit park setting. My gut feel was that as the hardware improves, 100% automated tracking of everyone is only a question of when.
BoorishBears 4y ago
New Haven, the city where Yale is and a much poorer city than NYC had PTZ surveillance cameras deployed when I lived there close to a decade ago. Cities can afford PTZ cameras and the backends to store mountains of high quality footage, the average small town municipality can't
- brk 4y ago
  There will almost always be some PTZs, but they are more of the exception than the rule. Also, when they are PTZs, they will tend to have smaller imagers and be 1080p max in previous eras (4K is more common in the last couple of years). The assumption that article makes about these cameras all likely to be 4K or 8K PTZs with the longest lens options is just absolutely wrong.

qwezxcrty 4y ago

Cities in Mainland China have comparable density of cameras, if not more. And there's no mechanism to stop the police or the Chinese three letter agencies using them for facial recognition. Pretty scary.

walterbell 4y ago

NYC has several thousand LinkNYC kiosks run by Google's Sidewalk Labs, located on major streets, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18024123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18024123 & https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation-videos.htm https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation... > Each kiosk has three cameras, 30 sensors, and heightened sight lines for viewing above crowds ... According to privacy watchdogs, the rollout of the kiosk’s cameras have shown how the mission has already expanded beyond its initial purview. In 2016, LinkNYC disclosed that the kiosks “may” contain cameras; by 2017, the cameras were operational. LinkNYC’s privacy policy states that cameras do not keep video records for more than seven days and that the camera footage is used to “improve the services.” But opting out is not an option: Just by walking down the block, it is possible to be swept into its audio or video feeds, which can capture a nearly 360-degree view of their surroundings. The new LinkNYC kiosks include a sizable 5G antenna, https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/nyregion/nyc-5g-towers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/nyregion/nyc-5g-towers.ht... > A curiously futuristic tower recently appeared on the corner of Putnam and Bedford Avenues in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn. A gray column topped by a perforated casing, at a whopping 32 feet tall, it reaches higher than the three-story brick building behind it ... a cylindrical object roughly the size of a human being: a 5G antenna that is 63 inches tall and 21 inches in diameter, according to the company. It is accompanied by a box that is 38 inches high, 16 inches wide and 14 inches deep — about the size of a filing cabinet or a night stand.

jmkb 4y ago
Currently only 2009 LinkNYCs, according to https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Social-Services/LinkNYC-Map/tgrn-h24f https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Social-Services/LinkNYC-Map/tg... My assumption is that these kiosks log all wifi and bluetooth traffic from nearby persons and vehicles, and USB device IDs of anything plugged in for charging. And of course the new ones will be logging 5G signals as well. Maybe there's not yet a centralized effort to coordinate these logs with the camera feeds to map people's physical appearance to their electronic footprints, but I can't imagine it isn't somewhere on the roadmap.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

London Sez: "15,000 cameras? Heh. That's cute. Hold my lager."

LatteLazy 4y ago
(Hold my bitter more like, lager is more popular in the US :) )

jahnu 4y ago

Reminded of Person of Interest Pretty entertaining show actually.

gaetgu 4y ago
I came here to say this. As time goes on I see more and more real tech that mirrors what is in the show, albeit without a controlling super-AI behind it all.
- walterbell 4y ago
  Palantir has access to quite a few databases, including health records, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34149508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34149508

nemo44x 4y ago

On one hand it might allow for softer and safer police practices. With ample video evidence and AI to recognize suspects, they can be apprehended at a time and place that’s safer for everyone. End of the day this is the price being paid for unfettered rioting and the increase in petty crime since then. There’s just no way that is going to be allowed to happen again. Extensive camera networks and AI will deliver summary reports of top suspects that police will be assigned to apprehend with real-time location data sent to nearest units hours, days, or even months after the crime. They might not get you for a few small shop lifting infractions but the cameras will watch and record and once you cross a threshold ($1000 In property?) you’ll make it into the summary report and face justice.

IanDrake 4y ago

[dead]

algog 4y ago

Is the MTA doing this at its subway turnstiles? Everyday I see people just walk thru the open gates or jump right thru without paying. I feel like a chump for paying.

mdni007 4y ago

Another reason to mask up

Havoc 4y ago

Does seem like the west is essentially moving in the same direction as China on this topic, just less overtly

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Awareness_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Awareness_System

account4mypc 4y ago

Anecdotally, NYC feels less safe than it has ever felt (in my 20+ yrs of being here). Most of the issues are not reportable crimes/would not be taken seriously by today's NYPD e.g. verbal harassment on the street, following, punching, etc. So while i'm sure i'm in the minority, i hope this leads to more policing.

MrMan 4y ago

we need cameras everywhere, this is a good start