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> "why don't homeless people just get jobs" This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society tha

by Swizec 4y ago

> "why don't homeless people just get jobs" This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? That’s a wonderful (and important) discussion to have! There are entire fields of research devoted to the question “Why don’t people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? What is preventing that?”. It’s a great question that everyone should take time to think about imo. edit: this gets even more interesting when you expand beyond USA. Why are there homeless people in countries with full safety nets? When someone can collect unemployment or disability that is meant to cover basic needs, why are they on the streets and asking passersby for handouts?

slater- 4y ago
drugs. edit: i'm serious. do you guys know any drug addicts? you lose your ability to make a plan.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Partly, yes. Partly it's a coping mechanism for being homeless, because they have no money and useful social connections, or the know-how to get out of it. In other words drugs being a symptom of homelessness, not necessarily a cause. Regardless of the extent of drugs' blame, I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, it's admission that there's more to fighting homelessness than shoving people in free apartments. I'm more curious as to why there's not an equivalent grassroots leftist sentiment for getting them jobs, as though that were somehow undignified. But notwithstanding the sometimes distorted incentives, maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. Jobs can give us a sense of meaning, but if validation and social needs are being replaced by a similar proxy among the homeless, then maybe motivation is stifled - on top of the general fatigue that comes from it.
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago
    > I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, For many people, there is, and they're capable of doing that work themselves once they're relieved from other pressures (like day-to-day survival). We all probably know someone that isn't enough for, but why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? > maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. That's a hard thing for anyone – though within most people's ability. (Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living.) Having a place to live makes both getting and holding a job much easier.
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      > like day-to-day survival Getting their square meals every day isn't the challenge for them. Even the meth tweakers eat. > why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? I don't think housing is the lowest-cost intervention > Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living No one is obliged to in the Western world, such is the safety net.
  - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
    My understanding is that where “housing first” has been tried, it makes it very much easier to start dealing with the other issues around mental health and getting jobs.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Housing without drug addiction or mental house services doesn’t end well for the housing, which is why housing costs are around $10k/month/person in many of these programs (at least in the Seattle area). You have to put asides funds for services and rehabbing the housing every year.
      - 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
simplotek 4y ago
> This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? I feel that it's more fruitful to not frame discussions on "why homeless people X" and instead think about why some of us end up losing any support and specially income so that the only and best option is to lose our home.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. That doesn't make sense. I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. It's another thing altogether to teach them to be tactful and tip-toe in mixed company around sensitive topics (which goes beyond the level of maturity of a child), but they shouldn't have to do that with their own parents.
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago
    > I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. Reframing a question isn't tiptoeing around it: "that's a Wrong Question" is the start of an answer. Though, probably the kind of answer you'd give someone able to read The Ask and the Answer and realise it's about fascism. Answering with a "Why don't they? What's keeping them from doing so?"-type reframe is the better approach for people not used to making such leaps on their own: you're teaching them to do this reframing, and to question premises. (Wrong Question = question from an invalid premise)
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      It's not an invalid premise.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. No. The problem is not whether X has a job or not. The problem is why X was forced to lose their home. In this day and age you can still lose your home even if you are juggling multiple jobs.
bruce511 4y ago
I feel like this is one of those questions that have different answers for different people. Hence there need to be multiple solutions that solve different root problems in different ways. Off the top of my head, homelessness can be caused by drug or alcohol abuse, mental illness, financial distress, or a desire to just tune out from societies responsibilities. I'm sure there are more. Some would like intervention, some would not. There is no "one size fits all" solution. The easy ones to help are the ones who are homeless for financial reasons. They need a leg up, and once up will be just fine. It's much harder when people are unemployable (mental illness, drug abuse etc) and basically need either reoccurring rehab, or long-term medical care. Our society does not function well for those too sick to fit in.
watwut 4y ago
I think it is purely political question intending to frame and limit the discussion about the issue. That is why it is pointless time wasting question. If it was honest direct question, the only true answer is that being homeless makes getting a job super hard. You need stability, you need address, you need to guard your belongings and you are too tired to be reasonably effective in work. And employer does not want you. And that is where it stops despite ignoring quite a huge amount of reality. And the issue with homelessness is not primary job issue. It is housing cost issue. It is mental health issue. It is social safety network issue. And drug use issue and violence issue. It is many issues in perfect storm that touch jobs only in an artificial way.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
This gets even harder when the neighborhood you live in has a substantial population of visible unhoused on fentanyl. Kids will make generalizations as quickly as adults when provided with first hand observations, and explaining selection bias to a 5 year old isn’t easy.
grecy 4y ago
A big part of the problem is that you have to be "in" the system to even get a job (and welfare in the countries that have it). You MUST have an address to write on the forms, you must have a phone number. For a job you'll need to have a shower, clothes, transport, etc.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  This is why programs exist to address this. All participants have to do is stick with it. So what's the problem? Either they decline, aren't fit to participate, or can't complete it. Which means there's yet more unaddressed needs before they can even be suited to work.

by Swizec 4y ago

slater- 4y ago

drugs. edit: i'm serious. do you guys know any drug addicts? you lose your ability to make a plan.

slothtrop 4y ago
Partly, yes. Partly it's a coping mechanism for being homeless, because they have no money and useful social connections, or the know-how to get out of it. In other words drugs being a symptom of homelessness, not necessarily a cause. Regardless of the extent of drugs' blame, I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, it's admission that there's more to fighting homelessness than shoving people in free apartments. I'm more curious as to why there's not an equivalent grassroots leftist sentiment for getting them jobs, as though that were somehow undignified. But notwithstanding the sometimes distorted incentives, maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. Jobs can give us a sense of meaning, but if validation and social needs are being replaced by a similar proxy among the homeless, then maybe motivation is stifled - on top of the general fatigue that comes from it.
- wizzwizz4 4y ago
  > I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, For many people, there is, and they're capable of doing that work themselves once they're relieved from other pressures (like day-to-day survival). We all probably know someone that isn't enough for, but why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? > maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. That's a hard thing for anyone – though within most people's ability. (Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living.) Having a place to live makes both getting and holding a job much easier.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    > like day-to-day survival Getting their square meals every day isn't the challenge for them. Even the meth tweakers eat. > why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? I don't think housing is the lowest-cost intervention > Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living No one is obliged to in the Western world, such is the safety net.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  My understanding is that where “housing first” has been tried, it makes it very much easier to start dealing with the other issues around mental health and getting jobs.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Housing without drug addiction or mental house services doesn’t end well for the housing, which is why housing costs are around $10k/month/person in many of these programs (at least in the Seattle area). You have to put asides funds for services and rehabbing the housing every year.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

simplotek 4y ago

> This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? I feel that it's more fruitful to not frame discussions on "why homeless people X" and instead think about why some of us end up losing any support and specially income so that the only and best option is to lose our home.

slothtrop 4y ago
You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. That doesn't make sense. I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. It's another thing altogether to teach them to be tactful and tip-toe in mixed company around sensitive topics (which goes beyond the level of maturity of a child), but they shouldn't have to do that with their own parents.
- wizzwizz4 4y ago
  > I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. Reframing a question isn't tiptoeing around it: "that's a Wrong Question" is the start of an answer. Though, probably the kind of answer you'd give someone able to read The Ask and the Answer and realise it's about fascism. Answering with a "Why don't they? What's keeping them from doing so?"-type reframe is the better approach for people not used to making such leaps on their own: you're teaching them to do this reframing, and to question premises. (Wrong Question = question from an invalid premise)
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    It's not an invalid premise.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. No. The problem is not whether X has a job or not. The problem is why X was forced to lose their home. In this day and age you can still lose your home even if you are juggling multiple jobs.

bruce511 4y ago

I feel like this is one of those questions that have different answers for different people. Hence there need to be multiple solutions that solve different root problems in different ways. Off the top of my head, homelessness can be caused by drug or alcohol abuse, mental illness, financial distress, or a desire to just tune out from societies responsibilities. I'm sure there are more. Some would like intervention, some would not. There is no "one size fits all" solution. The easy ones to help are the ones who are homeless for financial reasons. They need a leg up, and once up will be just fine. It's much harder when people are unemployable (mental illness, drug abuse etc) and basically need either reoccurring rehab, or long-term medical care. Our society does not function well for those too sick to fit in.

watwut 4y ago

I think it is purely political question intending to frame and limit the discussion about the issue. That is why it is pointless time wasting question. If it was honest direct question, the only true answer is that being homeless makes getting a job super hard. You need stability, you need address, you need to guard your belongings and you are too tired to be reasonably effective in work. And employer does not want you. And that is where it stops despite ignoring quite a huge amount of reality. And the issue with homelessness is not primary job issue. It is housing cost issue. It is mental health issue. It is social safety network issue. And drug use issue and violence issue. It is many issues in perfect storm that touch jobs only in an artificial way.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

This gets even harder when the neighborhood you live in has a substantial population of visible unhoused on fentanyl. Kids will make generalizations as quickly as adults when provided with first hand observations, and explaining selection bias to a 5 year old isn’t easy.

grecy 4y ago

A big part of the problem is that you have to be "in" the system to even get a job (and welfare in the countries that have it). You MUST have an address to write on the forms, you must have a phone number. For a job you'll need to have a shower, clothes, transport, etc.

slothtrop 4y ago
This is why programs exist to address this. All participants have to do is stick with it. So what's the problem? Either they decline, aren't fit to participate, or can't complete it. Which means there's yet more unaddressed needs before they can even be suited to work.