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> Whatever you do, do it as a ceremony. ... Yes, it takes us three times longer than it used to, but we’re not in a hurry We do this too, but we also often ack

> Whatever you do, do it as a ceremony. ... Yes, it takes us three times longer than it used to, but we’re not in a hurry We do this too, but we also often acknowledge, in front of the kids, that we have a lot of privilege to be able to do this. I want to make sure they know that poor people don't have the time to do what we do, because I already see signs of them asking "why don't homeless people just get jobs" and "did you know [classmate] has never been on a cruise before!!". I answer those questions too but I'm hoping to change their world view so they don't have to ask because they already know.

cactusplant7374 4y ago
> "did you know [classmate] has never been on a cruise before!!" There's a first time for everything.
Swizec 4y ago
> "why don't homeless people just get jobs" This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? That’s a wonderful (and important) discussion to have! There are entire fields of research devoted to the question “Why don’t people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? What is preventing that?”. It’s a great question that everyone should take time to think about imo. edit: this gets even more interesting when you expand beyond USA. Why are there homeless people in countries with full safety nets? When someone can collect unemployment or disability that is meant to cover basic needs, why are they on the streets and asking passersby for handouts?
- slater- 4y ago
  drugs. edit: i'm serious. do you guys know any drug addicts? you lose your ability to make a plan.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Partly, yes. Partly it's a coping mechanism for being homeless, because they have no money and useful social connections, or the know-how to get out of it. In other words drugs being a symptom of homelessness, not necessarily a cause. Regardless of the extent of drugs' blame, I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, it's admission that there's more to fighting homelessness than shoving people in free apartments. I'm more curious as to why there's not an equivalent grassroots leftist sentiment for getting them jobs, as though that were somehow undignified. But notwithstanding the sometimes distorted incentives, maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. Jobs can give us a sense of meaning, but if validation and social needs are being replaced by a similar proxy among the homeless, then maybe motivation is stifled - on top of the general fatigue that comes from it.
    - wizzwizz4 4y ago
      > I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, For many people, there is, and they're capable of doing that work themselves once they're relieved from other pressures (like day-to-day survival). We all probably know someone that isn't enough for, but why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? > maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. That's a hard thing for anyone – though within most people's ability. (Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living.) Having a place to live makes both getting and holding a job much easier.
      - slothtrop 4y ago
        > like day-to-day survival Getting their square meals every day isn't the challenge for them. Even the meth tweakers eat. > why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? I don't think housing is the lowest-cost intervention > Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living No one is obliged to in the Western world, such is the safety net.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? I feel that it's more fruitful to not frame discussions on "why homeless people X" and instead think about why some of us end up losing any support and specially income so that the only and best option is to lose our home.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. That doesn't make sense. I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. It's another thing altogether to teach them to be tactful and tip-toe in mixed company around sensitive topics (which goes beyond the level of maturity of a child), but they shouldn't have to do that with their own parents.
    - wizzwizz4 4y ago
      > I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. Reframing a question isn't tiptoeing around it: "that's a Wrong Question" is the start of an answer. Though, probably the kind of answer you'd give someone able to read The Ask and the Answer and realise it's about fascism. Answering with a "Why don't they? What's keeping them from doing so?"-type reframe is the better approach for people not used to making such leaps on their own: you're teaching them to do this reframing, and to question premises. (Wrong Question = question from an invalid premise)
      - slothtrop 4y ago
        It's not an invalid premise.
    - simplotek 4y ago
      > You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. No. The problem is not whether X has a job or not. The problem is why X was forced to lose their home. In this day and age you can still lose your home even if you are juggling multiple jobs.
- bruce511 4y ago
  I feel like this is one of those questions that have different answers for different people. Hence there need to be multiple solutions that solve different root problems in different ways. Off the top of my head, homelessness can be caused by drug or alcohol abuse, mental illness, financial distress, or a desire to just tune out from societies responsibilities. I'm sure there are more. Some would like intervention, some would not. There is no "one size fits all" solution. The easy ones to help are the ones who are homeless for financial reasons. They need a leg up, and once up will be just fine. It's much harder when people are unemployable (mental illness, drug abuse etc) and basically need either reoccurring rehab, or long-term medical care. Our society does not function well for those too sick to fit in.
- watwut 4y ago
  I think it is purely political question intending to frame and limit the discussion about the issue. That is why it is pointless time wasting question. If it was honest direct question, the only true answer is that being homeless makes getting a job super hard. You need stability, you need address, you need to guard your belongings and you are too tired to be reasonably effective in work. And employer does not want you. And that is where it stops despite ignoring quite a huge amount of reality. And the issue with homelessness is not primary job issue. It is housing cost issue. It is mental health issue. It is social safety network issue. And drug use issue and violence issue. It is many issues in perfect storm that touch jobs only in an artificial way.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  This gets even harder when the neighborhood you live in has a substantial population of visible unhoused on fentanyl. Kids will make generalizations as quickly as adults when provided with first hand observations, and explaining selection bias to a 5 year old isn’t easy.
- grecy 4y ago
  A big part of the problem is that you have to be "in" the system to even get a job (and welfare in the countries that have it). You MUST have an address to write on the forms, you must have a phone number. For a job you'll need to have a shower, clothes, transport, etc.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    This is why programs exist to address this. All participants have to do is stick with it. So what's the problem? Either they decline, aren't fit to participate, or can't complete it. Which means there's yet more unaddressed needs before they can even be suited to work.
fullsend 4y ago
I remember when I was a kid and I went to a friend’s birthday party, a Warriors game. His Dad was general partner of a VC firm, owned part of the Warriors and we had a center box with a buffet and everything. The mascot came to hang out with us, and much later some team members Obviously I had no idea what was going on. I went home to my parents very middle class home and promptly told my own Dad I wanted to take my 4th grade girlfriend to a Warriors game with box seats and a limo! How funny looking back.
- OJFord 4y ago
  If anyone ever asks me what 'new money' means...
  - bobkazamakis 4y ago
    this isn't the distiction you're hoping it is.
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  And to think that you had a girlfriend in 4th grade. How very privileged :)
crackercrews 4y ago
> We do this too, but we also often acknowledge, in front of the kids, that we have a lot of privilege to be able to do this. I recently interviewed a few high school students and they each made a point of professing their privilege. Even a kid who emigrated recently and lives in a poor part of town talked about his privilege. When everyone talks about their privilege, the word loses its meaning. I understand the point of being self-aware. And I wouldn't have been so struck if some of the kids had used different words. But they just sounded like little robots, reciting a mandatory confession. So if you want to talk about privilege with your kids, at least mix up the terms every now and then.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  They are reciting the guilt that they are copying off their parents. It’s horrible. Think about it this way. You worked damn hard so that your children have a better life. I know I do. So did my parents. Is it unfair that we give that advantage to our children? No. And certainly neither you or your children have anything to feel guilty about. I’m not from the US so I don’t understand the whole slavery issue but still, no one alive today deserves this insane guilt put on them now for some ancestor sin. That’s called collective guilt and it’s why nazis killed Jews. People need to stop it. Life is unfair and we are all different. What you do with your talents and resources is what counts. Not what some ancestor of yours did. It’s ridiculous. If you do feel privileged, give away your wealth. If you don’t, then don’t. But for gods sake stop feeling guilt about things you didn’t do.
  - jonathanlb 4y ago
    I agree to some extent, but your comment has several major fallacies: Slippery slope, e.g., acknowledging privilege or past wrongs leads to a dangerous path, such as the Holocaust. False dilemma, e.g., either one must give away their wealth or not feel guilty, when there are other options. Genetic fallacy, e.g., implying that the actions of ancestors should not be held against someone because they are not responsible for their ancestors actions. Even if someone didn't choose to have a certain privilege, that does not mean that it does not exist. Strawman Fallacy, e.g., presenting a misrepresenation of the idea of collective guilt and suggesting that it is the same as Nazis killing Jews. Like I said, I agree to the extent that guilt can be unproductive. If one feels that, though, about systemic injustices that allowed them to attain a privileged position in life, it could be seen as an invitation to address those and/or current injustices.
tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago
Unless you've actually lived through it yourself, you yourself don't understand so there's no chance to instill this in your children. It would be akin to trying to get an extremely wealthy child to understand the experience of using a washing machine for years on end when they've never even seen one because the help does all of that for them. Or the reverse, to get a middle class child to understand what it's like to have never even seen a washing machine because you have other humans who do it all for you. It's the human condition. But what you're doing is performative in the same way that screaming at people on twitter rather than actually working to help child abuse victims is performative. It's a way to assuage your feelings of guilt without expending enough of yourself to attempt to improve others' lives. --- On a side note, I'm aware HN is a "safe space" for folks like yourself, but sometimes it needs to be said. Perspective is a hell of a drug and often when I see posts like this it gets my gander up as someone who went from extreme poverty to privilege. And to answer the question that's coming, I'm known to be extremely charitable to _persons_ who need it, but I don't go out of my way to solve the general problem either. But the difference is I have no illusions about it.
- jedberg 4y ago
  Well first off I have the perspective and did live through it, so there's that. But also, why do people assume others can't have empathy? I don't have to touch a hot stove to know it hurts. I don't need to live in poverty to understand how difficult it is. Growing up Jewish I have been discriminated against, but I don't assume anyone who isn't Jewish can't understand my discrimination. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, or perhaps guilt for getting out of your situation. You shouldn't. You should be proud of your accomplishments. But you should also give people the benefit of the doubt that they can actually have empathy even if they haven't lived it.
  - tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago
    > I don't have to touch a hot stove to know it hurts. You do need to touch a hot stove to understand what a burn feels like, just as you need to actually deliver a baby to understand what that feels like. "It hurts" is not understanding in the same way that I'll never truly understand what an orgasm feels like for a woman (and vice versa for them). I've read it starts in the stomach and moves upwards through the body until it climaxes in the head, but who knows if that's actually true. Certainly for me it doesn't feel that way. Here's the question you have to answer. If you're walking by a drain that has a dozen chicks trapped in it but do nothing outside of recognize their plight, are you a good person for having recognized or a bad person for that recognition not being a call to action? _THAT_ is the basic moral quandry you're up against and I'm pointing out that not only is your solution wrong, you're trying to convince others you're moral rather than just neutral.

cactusplant7374 4y ago

> "did you know [classmate] has never been on a cruise before!!" There's a first time for everything.

Swizec 4y ago

> "why don't homeless people just get jobs" This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? That’s a wonderful (and important) discussion to have! There are entire fields of research devoted to the question “Why don’t people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? What is preventing that?”. It’s a great question that everyone should take time to think about imo. edit: this gets even more interesting when you expand beyond USA. Why are there homeless people in countries with full safety nets? When someone can collect unemployment or disability that is meant to cover basic needs, why are they on the streets and asking passersby for handouts?

slater- 4y ago
drugs. edit: i'm serious. do you guys know any drug addicts? you lose your ability to make a plan.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Partly, yes. Partly it's a coping mechanism for being homeless, because they have no money and useful social connections, or the know-how to get out of it. In other words drugs being a symptom of homelessness, not necessarily a cause. Regardless of the extent of drugs' blame, I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, it's admission that there's more to fighting homelessness than shoving people in free apartments. I'm more curious as to why there's not an equivalent grassroots leftist sentiment for getting them jobs, as though that were somehow undignified. But notwithstanding the sometimes distorted incentives, maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. Jobs can give us a sense of meaning, but if validation and social needs are being replaced by a similar proxy among the homeless, then maybe motivation is stifled - on top of the general fatigue that comes from it.
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago
    > I'm skeptical of any solution to homelessness that entails just putting them in a cubicle, "no strings", and declaring them no longer homeless. Yes it can be a useful mechanism, but there's more work to do beyond that, For many people, there is, and they're capable of doing that work themselves once they're relieved from other pressures (like day-to-day survival). We all probably know someone that isn't enough for, but why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? > maybe that's the actual hard part - holding down a job, and getting one that pays enough to make rent. That's a hard thing for anyone – though within most people's ability. (Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living.) Having a place to live makes both getting and holding a job much easier.
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      > like day-to-day survival Getting their square meals every day isn't the challenge for them. Even the meth tweakers eat. > why not start with the lowest-cost interventions? I don't think housing is the lowest-cost intervention > Ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether people should be obliged to in order to continue living No one is obliged to in the Western world, such is the safety net.
simplotek 4y ago
> This is a fair question to ask, though. Why don’t they just get jobs? What are the structural issues in society that lead to this? Why are some people chronically homeless while the average length of homelessness (for those experiencing it) is “just” around 150 days? Why is getting a job not the solution for many? Why are there even people with jobs who are homeless? I feel that it's more fruitful to not frame discussions on "why homeless people X" and instead think about why some of us end up losing any support and specially income so that the only and best option is to lose our home.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. That doesn't make sense. I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. It's another thing altogether to teach them to be tactful and tip-toe in mixed company around sensitive topics (which goes beyond the level of maturity of a child), but they shouldn't have to do that with their own parents.
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago
    > I don't think it's healthy let alone desirable to discourage pointed questions from kids. Reframing a question isn't tiptoeing around it: "that's a Wrong Question" is the start of an answer. Though, probably the kind of answer you'd give someone able to read The Ask and the Answer and realise it's about fascism. Answering with a "Why don't they? What's keeping them from doing so?"-type reframe is the better approach for people not used to making such leaps on their own: you're teaching them to do this reframing, and to question premises. (Wrong Question = question from an invalid premise)
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      It's not an invalid premise.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > You answered the question "why don't homeless people get jobs" with what you insist it should be reframed as. No. The problem is not whether X has a job or not. The problem is why X was forced to lose their home. In this day and age you can still lose your home even if you are juggling multiple jobs.
bruce511 4y ago
I feel like this is one of those questions that have different answers for different people. Hence there need to be multiple solutions that solve different root problems in different ways. Off the top of my head, homelessness can be caused by drug or alcohol abuse, mental illness, financial distress, or a desire to just tune out from societies responsibilities. I'm sure there are more. Some would like intervention, some would not. There is no "one size fits all" solution. The easy ones to help are the ones who are homeless for financial reasons. They need a leg up, and once up will be just fine. It's much harder when people are unemployable (mental illness, drug abuse etc) and basically need either reoccurring rehab, or long-term medical care. Our society does not function well for those too sick to fit in.
watwut 4y ago
I think it is purely political question intending to frame and limit the discussion about the issue. That is why it is pointless time wasting question. If it was honest direct question, the only true answer is that being homeless makes getting a job super hard. You need stability, you need address, you need to guard your belongings and you are too tired to be reasonably effective in work. And employer does not want you. And that is where it stops despite ignoring quite a huge amount of reality. And the issue with homelessness is not primary job issue. It is housing cost issue. It is mental health issue. It is social safety network issue. And drug use issue and violence issue. It is many issues in perfect storm that touch jobs only in an artificial way.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
This gets even harder when the neighborhood you live in has a substantial population of visible unhoused on fentanyl. Kids will make generalizations as quickly as adults when provided with first hand observations, and explaining selection bias to a 5 year old isn’t easy.
grecy 4y ago
A big part of the problem is that you have to be "in" the system to even get a job (and welfare in the countries that have it). You MUST have an address to write on the forms, you must have a phone number. For a job you'll need to have a shower, clothes, transport, etc.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  This is why programs exist to address this. All participants have to do is stick with it. So what's the problem? Either they decline, aren't fit to participate, or can't complete it. Which means there's yet more unaddressed needs before they can even be suited to work.

fullsend 4y ago

I remember when I was a kid and I went to a friend’s birthday party, a Warriors game. His Dad was general partner of a VC firm, owned part of the Warriors and we had a center box with a buffet and everything. The mascot came to hang out with us, and much later some team members Obviously I had no idea what was going on. I went home to my parents very middle class home and promptly told my own Dad I wanted to take my 4th grade girlfriend to a Warriors game with box seats and a limo! How funny looking back.

OJFord 4y ago
If anyone ever asks me what 'new money' means...
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  this isn't the distiction you're hoping it is.
crossroadsguy 4y ago
And to think that you had a girlfriend in 4th grade. How very privileged :)

crackercrews 4y ago

> We do this too, but we also often acknowledge, in front of the kids, that we have a lot of privilege to be able to do this. I recently interviewed a few high school students and they each made a point of professing their privilege. Even a kid who emigrated recently and lives in a poor part of town talked about his privilege. When everyone talks about their privilege, the word loses its meaning. I understand the point of being self-aware. And I wouldn't have been so struck if some of the kids had used different words. But they just sounded like little robots, reciting a mandatory confession. So if you want to talk about privilege with your kids, at least mix up the terms every now and then.

cloutchaser 4y ago
They are reciting the guilt that they are copying off their parents. It’s horrible. Think about it this way. You worked damn hard so that your children have a better life. I know I do. So did my parents. Is it unfair that we give that advantage to our children? No. And certainly neither you or your children have anything to feel guilty about. I’m not from the US so I don’t understand the whole slavery issue but still, no one alive today deserves this insane guilt put on them now for some ancestor sin. That’s called collective guilt and it’s why nazis killed Jews. People need to stop it. Life is unfair and we are all different. What you do with your talents and resources is what counts. Not what some ancestor of yours did. It’s ridiculous. If you do feel privileged, give away your wealth. If you don’t, then don’t. But for gods sake stop feeling guilt about things you didn’t do.
- jonathanlb 4y ago
  I agree to some extent, but your comment has several major fallacies: Slippery slope, e.g., acknowledging privilege or past wrongs leads to a dangerous path, such as the Holocaust. False dilemma, e.g., either one must give away their wealth or not feel guilty, when there are other options. Genetic fallacy, e.g., implying that the actions of ancestors should not be held against someone because they are not responsible for their ancestors actions. Even if someone didn't choose to have a certain privilege, that does not mean that it does not exist. Strawman Fallacy, e.g., presenting a misrepresenation of the idea of collective guilt and suggesting that it is the same as Nazis killing Jews. Like I said, I agree to the extent that guilt can be unproductive. If one feels that, though, about systemic injustices that allowed them to attain a privileged position in life, it could be seen as an invitation to address those and/or current injustices.

tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago

Unless you've actually lived through it yourself, you yourself don't understand so there's no chance to instill this in your children. It would be akin to trying to get an extremely wealthy child to understand the experience of using a washing machine for years on end when they've never even seen one because the help does all of that for them. Or the reverse, to get a middle class child to understand what it's like to have never even seen a washing machine because you have other humans who do it all for you. It's the human condition. But what you're doing is performative in the same way that screaming at people on twitter rather than actually working to help child abuse victims is performative. It's a way to assuage your feelings of guilt without expending enough of yourself to attempt to improve others' lives. --- On a side note, I'm aware HN is a "safe space" for folks like yourself, but sometimes it needs to be said. Perspective is a hell of a drug and often when I see posts like this it gets my gander up as someone who went from extreme poverty to privilege. And to answer the question that's coming, I'm known to be extremely charitable to _persons_ who need it, but I don't go out of my way to solve the general problem either. But the difference is I have no illusions about it.

jedberg 4y ago
Well first off I have the perspective and did live through it, so there's that. But also, why do people assume others can't have empathy? I don't have to touch a hot stove to know it hurts. I don't need to live in poverty to understand how difficult it is. Growing up Jewish I have been discriminated against, but I don't assume anyone who isn't Jewish can't understand my discrimination. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, or perhaps guilt for getting out of your situation. You shouldn't. You should be proud of your accomplishments. But you should also give people the benefit of the doubt that they can actually have empathy even if they haven't lived it.
- tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago
  > I don't have to touch a hot stove to know it hurts. You do need to touch a hot stove to understand what a burn feels like, just as you need to actually deliver a baby to understand what that feels like. "It hurts" is not understanding in the same way that I'll never truly understand what an orgasm feels like for a woman (and vice versa for them). I've read it starts in the stomach and moves upwards through the body until it climaxes in the head, but who knows if that's actually true. Certainly for me it doesn't feel that way. Here's the question you have to answer. If you're walking by a drain that has a dozen chicks trapped in it but do nothing outside of recognize their plight, are you a good person for having recognized or a bad person for that recognition not being a call to action? _THAT_ is the basic moral quandry you're up against and I'm pointing out that not only is your solution wrong, you're trying to convince others you're moral rather than just neutral.