12 ms·

There was nothing “wasted” about my youth spent clubbing on ecstasy (2021)

144 points by kvee 4y ago

flemhans 4y ago
I don't feel anything from MDMA. Not even the first time. Even proven good sources. Other people using the same batch get great results. Increased the dosage, still nothing. Nobody believes me. Anyone tried this?
- jamil7 4y ago
  I believe it sometimes doesn't work the first time. Also, if you're on some types of medication for depression or anxiety or are chemically depressed, it may not work at all. I don't have sources for this, just anecdotal, so do your own research.
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  Are you antidepressants or anything similar?
thesaintlives 4y ago
MDMA made a fundamental change to the way I perceive music. For me it was a really positive experience. Responsible drug use by adults should not be a crime.
pestatije 4y ago
Survivorship bias...the ones who regreted it cannot or won't publisice it
- Tenoke 4y ago
  Most people who regret doing drugs can publicise it.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    I don't believe "most" is true. There is an enormous social stigma around them and people who do/did use them usually try to conceal the fact. It's not just about what others think, this doesn't matter much, but you can easily lose your job and this threatens your very existence. You can probably get away with "I did it many years ago and now I'm clean and I condemn it" but some people will always be suspicious anyway.
    - zztop44 4y ago
      Maybe 30 years ago. But there has been a US president who admitted to cocaine use and still got elected in a landslide. Of course it depends where and in what milieu but in the US mainstream I don’t think the stigma to some past drug use is that extreme. Especially if you’re clean now.
    - Tenoke 4y ago
      More accurately it's not the case that those that don't regret it can report it at that much higher rates for survivorship bias to be relevant.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    And in fact, many do. There's also scores of people who enjoyed drugs without issues. You probably won't hear anything from any of them, given the social stigma.
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    You don’t get much sympathy or circulation talking about your bad experience unless it is part of a “drugs are bad” sermon.
082349872349872 4y ago
> vulnerable, communicative, hopeful and a little bit messy. seems it would mesh well with the HN injunction to maximise curious conversation. Banjolele Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2iP5Si-Ho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2iP5Si-Ho
bullfsh 4y ago
The idea you need synthetic, mind-altering drugs to "be yourself" is tautologically absurd on its face, and this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs.
- Tenoke 4y ago
  That's a wild claim. It's not as unlikely as you think for someone who enjoys something to praise it on their own.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  Of course you don't need them to. At the same thing I doubt this article is some output of "big MDMA". I can definitely say the authors experience chimes with my own, talking to people openly at after parties sorted out a lot of things for me - with apologies to anyone that became my adhoc therapist at the time. Of course there are downsides; one upside of feeling terrible on a Wednesday is the realisation that it was vecause of going out on a Friday. What's worse is feeling terrible and it's during a time where you haven't been going out partying.
  - doctor_eval 4y ago
    There was a specific phrase in my circles for that particular kind of Wednesday, but sadly I’ve forgotten what it was.
    - simonswords82 4y ago
      I've heard it called "Suicide Tuesday" or perhaps "Suicide Wednesday" in your case
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- maxbond 4y ago
  I need mind altering substances to avoid anxiety and depression; I wholly reject the idea that without these substances, I am my "true self." My intrusive thoughts and self doubts aren't mystically good just because my mind produces them in the absence of substances; the feeling of self actualization I have if I use substances and am able to move past that headspace and reclaim my creativity (what I personally call "feeling like myself again") is no less real for having involved substances.
aarobot 4y ago
Why does the author admit they used illegal drugs?
- stuaxo 4y ago
  It's just not that unusual in the UK, Es really aren't on the same level as opiates for instance.
  - zoover2020 4y ago
    Same in other parts of Europe. Current population of 18-30 year olds for sure has a majority of people who tried MDMA or other psychedelics
  - fastball 4y ago
    Indeed, arguably the biggest risk from taking ecstasy is because it is illegal and therefore has a higher potential to be cut with substances that are much more likely to cause users harm.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kruuuder 4y ago
  More people should do that. This will help create reasonable drug laws better than the laws we currently have in most countries, too many of which are based on ideology, fiction and religious moral attitudes.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Because unless you are an author who gets famous and writes about using drugs all the time and practically nothing else[1] no one except the police care. Everyone over 30 knows that every professional workplace has habitual coke users, that a large majority of artists/musicians/art teachers/bar tenders/chefs are currently or were previously users of weed or LSD. [1] https://pen.org/press-clip/british-author-barred-for-moral-turpitude/ https://pen.org/press-clip/british-author-barred-for-moral-t...
- 4y ago
hardlianotion 4y ago
As the late great George Best said: I spent a lot of money on booze, women and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
- IndySun 4y ago
  Unfortunately for George, and his generation, they ended up with a more physically and mentally damaging, addictive drug.
sirsinsalot 4y ago
MDMA is one of the most wonderful chemicals I've tried. I've had experiences of bonding and closeness with people that words can not express. While it may be artificial to a degree, the experience is no less profound. The problem with these kinds of experiences is that it is fantasy made real to a degree and life without those experiences can seem dull. That can be tricky to reconcile and isn't really spoken about enough. That box can't be closed once open.
- NovaVeles 4y ago
  Alan Watts said it about LSD - but equally applies to MDMA. Use it like a scientist uses a microscope. Use it to observe but then you go away and work on what you have experienced. Don't get fixated on the observation stage.
  - joshxyz 4y ago
    Another similar phrase: "Once you got the message, hang up the phone."
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - elevaet 4y ago
      Unfortunately he didn't apply that philosophy to the bottle, which killed him in the end.
  - petre 4y ago
    I saw a documentary about LSD with Watts and a bunch if otger people, including A. Hoffman interviewed. What I wonder about is why do people who have consumed LSD or are into psychedelics exhibit all sorts of new age artefacts around their homes?
    - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
      If you're open to trying one thing that you're not "supposed to" then I think it's pretty unlikely that that's the only alt-thing you're into.
4ad 4y ago
I'm very pro legalization, I think the government should have no say in what people do with their bodies, and I seek new experiences. That being said, by reading what the author said in this article I am so happy I have never done MDMA nor had I anything to do with the culture around it. Conversations that seem profound, but aren't, making drugs part of your identity, thanks, not for me, and not for the type of people I want to be friends with. I am happy the events lived through by the author are perceived as having been positive by her today, but if I would have had the same experiences in my youth I would definitely think I wasted my life.
- Nursie 4y ago
  Conversations you have in ecstasy often are very profound, you may open up in ways you would not normally. You feel understood, and you feel heightened empathy towards others. You seem very judgemental. Edit: I am rate-limited and cannot respond below, so I'll add here. Your idea that this is all necessarily a false experience is, to put it bluntly, incorrect. You seem to think that people aren't really listening to each other and aren't really understanding each other, but in many cases they really are. I called you judgemental because you said you wouldn't want to be associated with that 'type of people', not because of your choice not to use a substance.
  - 4ad 4y ago
    > Conversations you have in ecstasy often are very profound. Often repeated for all kinds of drugs, MDMA, psychedelics, even marijuana users claim this. But in my experience conversations are universally banal and only seem profound. > you may open up in ways you would not normally To me, this sounds like a nightmare. The idea that something artificial could change me in any way. And the idea that people desire this is scary. > You feel understood Exactly, you feel understood without being understood. > You seem very judgemental. For exercising my right to not do something while recognizing the right of others to do it? Oh, the irony.
    - octatrack 4y ago
      > To me, this sounds like a nightmare. The idea that something artificial could change me in any way. And the idea that people desire this is scary. For many, this is the whole point of taking psychedelics - to find self-improvement through these altered states. Science seem to confirm this works. [0] Why does it feel scary to you? [0] Psychedelics and Neuroplasticity: A Systematic Review Unraveling the Biological Underpinnings of Psychedelics - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34566723/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34566723/
nxmnxm99 4y ago
These are the same people who then blame capitalism for their mental health issues
octatrack 4y ago
The early decade or so of electronic music parties were truly magical. People were mostly on MDMA and/or LSD and did not consume much alcohol. Sadly, these days alcohol culture has taken over, and people often use cocaine or speed to remain energetic while drunk. It’s a different kind of vibe - more about escaping versus opening the mind as it is with MDMA or psychedelics. There are still places where more conscious partying happens. These are typically psychedelic trance or deep techno festivals. Alcohol truly is one of the worst drug we use - just look at Dr. David Nutt’s research [0]. I really wish young people clubbing these days gravitated towards less harmful drugs. [0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210.am...
- drowsspa 4y ago
  Yeah, I wish I found those places, I really hate alcohol. I do hope I see it legalized one day, because someone like me can't even think of where to start to look for them.
- zoover2020 4y ago
  Have you been to European dance/hard dance festivals? Most people are on X or other psychedelics there
- mach1ne 4y ago
  I’m sorry, but the article you linked is just sensational - its header claims alcohol is more harmful than heroin. Alcohol usage is extremely widespread, so of course its negative effects are more obvious in the population than other drugs. Personally, I’d rather be surrounded by a group of alcohol abusers than a group of psychedelics abusers.
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    If you give addicts pure heroin a lot of them can function just fine. We should consider the negative consequences of prohibition rather than just the drugs themselves.
    - 4y ago
malthaus 4y ago
A few minutes in and already commentors talk about "drugs" as if MDMA is in the same category as Heroin, while casually going out for a few beers later.
- harvey9 4y ago
  It is, if your categories are legal and illegal. Also, there are recreational heroin users who would grin at your implied meaning.
  - pawelduda 4y ago
    Imagine inhaling carcinogenic smoke against your will because someone lights a cigarette next to your face, but then remembering it's all fine because the legal/illegal framework has got you covered.
    - harvey9 4y ago
      That's why the are separate laws around where you can and cannot smoke.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
MDMA has lead to some amazing life experiences I'm a bit confused by the following line in the article though: > all the money we spent on ecstasy, or E as we called it Usually a fiver a pill and one pills all you need. Double dropping is a waste of time.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  It's funny, no one says the same thing about alcohol, yet it can get very costly very quickly. I never bought MDMA or any other drug in nightclubs, but I've seen people dealing, and I think the price was €10 a pill. In the same places at the time, a random shitty drink was like €9 and a beer (330 mL) around 8. People would clearly drink more than a single drink a night.
  - Throwaway48885 4y ago
    MDMA doesn't work the second time you take it the same day, you won't feel practically any effect at all. You have to wait some time. The next day it might work a little but if you try to do it 3 days in a row that's not going to work.
    - junon 4y ago
      It's also dangerous to do it that often. Minimum time between doses should be 3 months to be as safe as possible. People who drop more than once don't understand how it works and are just setting themselves up for medical emergencies.
      - nibbleshifter 4y ago
        3 months seems to be a fairly arbitrary length of time, but yes - its not a drug you want to take too often, and redosing is counterproductive. Its unfortunate that due to prohibition, a lot of harm reduction advice is based on folk wisdom kind of knowledge as opposed to hard science.
        4y ago
gyanchawdhary 4y ago
More info on the author https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/26/why-ill-be-spending-my-golden-years-with-my-golden-girls https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/26/why-ill...
- 4ad 4y ago
  Good for her, but now I am even more convinced of my assessment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34379009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34379009
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    I agree with your linked assessment of MDMA-driven experience. However, her plan to retire with other singletons seems sensible. Why does it further convince you of your assessment of MDMA experiences?
    - 4ad 4y ago
      You can build things in life, or you can consume them. You can build a business, a family, a career in sports or arts, whatever it is that interests you and you work towards that goal. Everybody does a little bit of both, some people do one more preponderantly than the other. My experience is that drug users do less building and more consuming. Carpe diem philosophy and all that. This second article seems to reinforce that. Nothing wrong with this way of life, if it brings fulfilment to the author, more power to her, but I seek other kind of people.
lucidlive 4y ago
Brilliant article, thank you. Your experience mirrors mine from the 90s warehouse rave days in Montreal, Canada.
tezza 4y ago
A rather whimsical take on the scene which frustratingly skipped some of the best aspects Freedom… depending on where you lived (Sydney in my case) you could party every hour Friday night until Monday morning, linking up clubs Parking was easier, you could drive places without a permit Anonymity… there was no social media and cameras were few and far between Music… some of the sounds had never been heard before. Even in 2023 you can go into a wanker bar and hear stuff like Kruder and Dorfmeister or Dmitri from Paris playing overhead. Music sounds just stopped being made Scale… Gatecrasher, Creamfields, Ibiza, Love Parade, Bush Doof, Raves … it is less these days or more atomised 1999-Millenium… just an amazing transition time that cannot be bottled
andy_ppp 4y ago
It’s interesting how negative all the people who seem not to have done MDMA in this thread are… and how positive the article and those who have experienced it are.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  Ask a serial killer how killing is and he'll probably say it's a positive experience. It's not because someone that experienced something is saying it's a positive thing that it is necessarily true.
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    You are proving my point here… a really strange and negative analogy to use that makes zero sense.
    - iLoveOncall 4y ago
      I assumed your post was a veiled way to say that people that didn't experience it shouldn't have a say on it.
- noodleman 4y ago
  Can you not read, or did you just choose not to? There are a range of experiences from both sides of the discussion.
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    You could rewrite this comment as "I think you are wrong here, I felt there are a range of experiences from both sides of the discussion." The HN guidelines are quite clear on this...
throwaway6001 4y ago
I'm with computers since ZX80, now run my own IT company, knocking wood. I was heavily into DJ'ing for about 6 years of my life about 20 years ago. I'm talking MDMA, meth, all sorts of stimulants - multi-day partying, LSD, ketamine, whatever... Things I wish someone would tell me earlier: - All this stimulation never, never goes without payment. MDMA is a stimulant. You always pay later with something. Think destroyed sinuses, which I can still feel 20 years later, ED, weight issues, bad teeth. - Stimulants are not as addictive as what we call "heavy drugs," but they can easily become the way of life - there is a strong psychological addiction which leads to difficulties of moderation. If you are into pattern where they are available on a regular basis, it will be difficult to break out from all that stuff - meeting friends, having great time, hanging out, and so on... - Some of my friends have really damaged themselves along the way, and I'm talking psychological/psychiatric issues that they still experience today. What is good for one could be poisonous for the other. It's difficult to have a frame of reference if everyone around is high. - I eventually ended up with this: Don't put anything in your body that isn't grown naturally. Shrooms and weed are so much better... Almost if the nature is guiding us. There are subtle nuances. (Of course there are myriads of natural poisons that will kill or damage you.) - Having a respectful approach to all mind-altering substances helps to stay out of trouble. Unfortunately, with our era of "playground Internet" it's so much difficult. (Where's entheogen.org?) All those substances are teachers.
- ProllyInfamous 4y ago
  It was 19 years ago that speed overuse contributed to my first lost tooth. Four months ago I FINALLY was able to want/afford/get dental implant_S (plural, b/c I lost myself MORE teefs) — WOW — itself a psychological experience (sedation or not)! In two months, I will be getting my fake teeth installed onto aforementioned implanted posts — I have cried uncontrollably about this, for years and presently, but just cannot begin to stress how much of a mental (and physical) accomplishment this will be. ---- I'm not here to harp and tell "nobody don't do nothin," but live your life in moderation AND BRUSH YOU TEETH!
snarfy 4y ago
I really miss the early 2000 rave scene. Some songs still give me flashbacks.
derrida 4y ago
> "It started with that rush known as “coming up.” Different people experienced it in different ways, but for me it was an overwhelming feeling of warmth and a glowing sensation that flooded my body. My friends had all taken it before me and told me what to expect; they never left me until I had come up. And then, as well as having an urge to dance to the music that inhabited me, I felt a connectedness to people that I had never felt before. I felt a surge of empathy for my fellow clubbers; it was heavenly. The rest of the night was filled with what I can only describe as ineffable joy." I've had MDMA like this. No regrets. Years later I found better - a 1 hr long full body orgasms - thank god it was alone in kutis seperated by forest - i sounded like meg ryan in "Sleepless in Seattle" for about an hr or two each day - but where did I find this? In myself doing nothing other than scanning my body in meditation and letting the breath calm me. Externally: it was in a monastery meditating with a group of celibate monks in the middle of the forest - and that is the foot hills - not yet "jhana". This is properly why people are celibate - they are not idiots. I found the cause for that. It wasn't in self denial or asceticism but actually - to reach something deeper. There are of course people celibate for the wrong reasons. BUt I got an idea of why. Also in finding this pleasure its based directly on the lack of interest one finds in sensory pleasure which ironically frees energy that produces pleasure in ones senses and body - I see also how the ability to sort of "feel out" or feel oneself into this is a great service to society as the act of practicing this is finding the internal harmony in oneself and that manifests as external harmony. This is why people were properly monks and nuns - but also the source of the institutions wisdom and power and later domination by the types that just want power and so on.
bennysonething 4y ago
Hrm, I'm in my 40s. I got a criminal record at 20 for being caught in a club with 3 pills. It still didn't stop me. I continued doing Es for a long time. It was good at the time but I wish I hadn't done them. It's like a lot of other drugs, once you've done it everything becomes dull without it. I used to think about them all the time. Until it got to the point were I hated them. The come downs became horrific (once you've done a lot of them, hangovers don't come close). I was given some mdma at a festival 5 years ago. I hated it. It was strong but I hated the feeling of being out of my mind. Mainly I think all I got out of it was a ruined short term memory and wasted time recovering from endless nights out. I don't look back with rose tinted specs. I regret it.
- noodleman 4y ago
  Well said. These drug-positive articles never appropriately discuss the negative side effects of the lifestyle in a way that seems realistic. Several people from my youth never made it to adulthood to regret the things they did as a result of drugs. Even "harmless" drugs like MDMA have consequences.
  - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
    Only a fool would consider any drug harmless, obviously all (including MDMA) can have consequences.
    - dustymcp 4y ago
      Anything is dangerous if you are reckless, i bet druguse with proper guidance would be way better than the advice you get in the trailerpark.
    - MacsHeadroom 4y ago
      Recreational horseback riding is statistically more deadly and more likely to result in serious injury than ecstasy use. [0] Of course everything has risks. But nobody demands an article about the pleasures of equestrianism to include a warning about traumatic brain injury and paralysis risks. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/drugs-alcohol-drugs-policy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/drugs-...
xg15 4y ago
It's definitely an interesting article, but I think here it's really worth to click around a bit and get aware of the context it's posted in. The site it's published on, Filter Magazine, describes itself [1]: > Our mission is to advocate through journalism for rational and compassionate approaches to drug use, drug policy and human rights. Sponsors include [2] Juul Labs, Phillip Morris International, The American Vaping Association and Knowledge Action Change (see below). The author of the article herself is a grantee of Knowledge Action Change [3]. KAC describes itself [4] as an advocacy organization for "tobacco harm reduction" which basically means promoting "alternative" tobacco products such as vapes. [5] None of this means that the article is wrong, but it is definitely not unbiased. I think it makes a difference that the author is not some random person who reflects about her drug use growing up and comes to the conclusion that it actually had lasting positive effects - but someone who actively lobbies for drug use as part of her job. [1] https://filtermag.org/about-filter/amp/ https://filtermag.org/about-filter/amp/ [2] https://filtermag.org/about-the-influence-foundation/amp/ https://filtermag.org/about-the-influence-foundation/amp/ [3] https://filtermag.org/author/kiran-sidhu/amp/ https://filtermag.org/author/kiran-sidhu/amp/ [4] https://kachange.eu/#about-us https://kachange.eu/#about-us [5] https://thrsp.net/introduction-to-the-thrsp/ https://thrsp.net/introduction-to-the-thrsp/
- _a_a_a_ 4y ago
  Thank you. Bias always needs a revealing.
- garbagetime 4y ago
  > it is definitely not unbiased. Can one really reach that conclusion from your evidence? A person can recieve sponsorships without allowing that fact to influence the person's writing.
  - ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
    Are Philip morris getting into the ecstasy business? Seems unlikely.
    - 4y ago
Lio 4y ago
The Halcyon (and on) days of youth. Sorry, could resist the Orbital reference. When I think back to that time that's what always comes to mind for some reason. That and a big smile.
danjc 4y ago
Would be good to see some research exploring the relationship between recreational drug use and neurological conditions such as dementia, anxiety, depression, etc. Hindsight is 20/20 vision and all that but I'd definitely choose a healthy mind over a bunch of brief euphoric experiences.
- pas 4y ago
  this is the promise of large population longitudinal studies, because they can properly deal with the endogeneity problem. (are people taking drugs because their life is not-ok, or are drugs making them not-ok, etc.)
joemazerino 4y ago
I'd like to hear how the author is doing now. Family? Good job? Mentally balanced?
- ohyoutravel 4y ago
  They have a good job with a firm funded by Phillip Morris and others lobbying for more drug use via articles like this one. It’s like going to school to get a PhD in Egyptology and then taking a job as a professor of Egyptology. Good gig for the training if you can get it.
rmac 4y ago
this article is quixotic at best. the author states the common clubber exchange was: "name/location/drug?" then waxes nostalgic about "open conversations" on pills, citing a 2 line dialogue with someone about sexuality and masculinity? red flags: -how were they having these intimate conversations in clubs blasting massive attack? -yes i do believe MDMA can be used to facilitate open communication, but also think that this superpower would be better served to create/restore lasting relationships vs single-dose convos in clubs -none of the potential downsides to her drug use were listed. iirc, back then mdma was frequently cut with meth. the author doesn't mention safety around testing your drugs or long-term mental / physical issues stemming from large-dose/chronic MDMA usage. not to diminish their nostalgia and their decisions -- go do drugs. legalize .*
- hgsgm 4y ago
  MDMA make you feel in love. It doesn't matter what you talk about or how much.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >in clubs blasting massive attack? Somewhat pedantic, but it's not like "massive attack" is a heavy sound, or something that dance clubs would be blasting...
  - rmac 4y ago
    underground clubs I attended all played music very loudly, and few had "chillout" rooms where you could actually talk. even in the bathrooms you had to scream...
WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
Her next post will be "Where have all the good men went".
koalala 4y ago
i tried nearly drug under the sun back in the day, played in bands, wrote the best songs during drug comedowns and partied like an animal until suddenly growing up around 30 and getting my bachelor's in physics, a family and starting a business. i have no regrets. mdma, lsd, ketamine and nitrous were my favourites. i still smoke weed now and then on weekends, never drink because i don't really enjoy it. i'm from the netherlands in case that matters.
0daym 4y ago
because she remained the same person that she was back then, she didn't grow up, so yea, where's the regret going to come from
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Also got sponsored by drug dealers to write this article.
jokoon 4y ago
While it's true the war on drugs has gone too far, saying illegal drugs are "not so bad for your health" is a bit much. The most disturbing is reading people who says psilo is better than antidepressants to treat depression, because it's FDA approved in some situation under supervision. It's funny how many experts you can find about this subject online.
throw__away7391 4y ago
I don't think this author ever makes the point of the title. I would title this instead "doing drugs when you're young is fun".

144 points by kvee 4y ago

I don't feel anything from MDMA. Not even the first time. Even proven good sources. Other people using the same batch get great results. Increased the dosage, still nothing. Nobody believes me. Anyone tried this?

jamil7 4y ago
I believe it sometimes doesn't work the first time. Also, if you're on some types of medication for depression or anxiety or are chemically depressed, it may not work at all. I don't have sources for this, just anecdotal, so do your own research.
Dma54rhs 4y ago
Are you antidepressants or anything similar?

thesaintlives 4y ago

MDMA made a fundamental change to the way I perceive music. For me it was a really positive experience. Responsible drug use by adults should not be a crime.

pestatije 4y ago

Survivorship bias...the ones who regreted it cannot or won't publisice it

Tenoke 4y ago
Most people who regret doing drugs can publicise it.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  I don't believe "most" is true. There is an enormous social stigma around them and people who do/did use them usually try to conceal the fact. It's not just about what others think, this doesn't matter much, but you can easily lose your job and this threatens your very existence. You can probably get away with "I did it many years ago and now I'm clean and I condemn it" but some people will always be suspicious anyway.
  - zztop44 4y ago
    Maybe 30 years ago. But there has been a US president who admitted to cocaine use and still got elected in a landslide. Of course it depends where and in what milieu but in the US mainstream I don’t think the stigma to some past drug use is that extreme. Especially if you’re clean now.
  - Tenoke 4y ago
    More accurately it's not the case that those that don't regret it can report it at that much higher rates for survivorship bias to be relevant.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  And in fact, many do. There's also scores of people who enjoyed drugs without issues. You probably won't hear anything from any of them, given the social stigma.
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  You don’t get much sympathy or circulation talking about your bad experience unless it is part of a “drugs are bad” sermon.

082349872349872 4y ago

> vulnerable, communicative, hopeful and a little bit messy. seems it would mesh well with the HN injunction to maximise curious conversation. Banjolele Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2iP5Si-Ho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2iP5Si-Ho

bullfsh 4y ago

The idea you need synthetic, mind-altering drugs to "be yourself" is tautologically absurd on its face, and this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs.

Tenoke 4y ago
That's a wild claim. It's not as unlikely as you think for someone who enjoys something to praise it on their own.
stuaxo 4y ago
Of course you don't need them to. At the same thing I doubt this article is some output of "big MDMA". I can definitely say the authors experience chimes with my own, talking to people openly at after parties sorted out a lot of things for me - with apologies to anyone that became my adhoc therapist at the time. Of course there are downsides; one upside of feeling terrible on a Wednesday is the realisation that it was vecause of going out on a Friday. What's worse is feeling terrible and it's during a time where you haven't been going out partying.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  There was a specific phrase in my circles for that particular kind of Wednesday, but sadly I’ve forgotten what it was.
  - simonswords82 4y ago
    I've heard it called "Suicide Tuesday" or perhaps "Suicide Wednesday" in your case
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
maxbond 4y ago
I need mind altering substances to avoid anxiety and depression; I wholly reject the idea that without these substances, I am my "true self." My intrusive thoughts and self doubts aren't mystically good just because my mind produces them in the absence of substances; the feeling of self actualization I have if I use substances and am able to move past that headspace and reclaim my creativity (what I personally call "feeling like myself again") is no less real for having involved substances.

aarobot 4y ago

Why does the author admit they used illegal drugs?

stuaxo 4y ago
It's just not that unusual in the UK, Es really aren't on the same level as opiates for instance.
- zoover2020 4y ago
  Same in other parts of Europe. Current population of 18-30 year olds for sure has a majority of people who tried MDMA or other psychedelics
- fastball 4y ago
  Indeed, arguably the biggest risk from taking ecstasy is because it is illegal and therefore has a higher potential to be cut with substances that are much more likely to cause users harm.
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kruuuder 4y ago
More people should do that. This will help create reasonable drug laws better than the laws we currently have in most countries, too many of which are based on ideology, fiction and religious moral attitudes.
barry-cotter 4y ago
Because unless you are an author who gets famous and writes about using drugs all the time and practically nothing else[1] no one except the police care. Everyone over 30 knows that every professional workplace has habitual coke users, that a large majority of artists/musicians/art teachers/bar tenders/chefs are currently or were previously users of weed or LSD. [1] https://pen.org/press-clip/british-author-barred-for-moral-turpitude/ https://pen.org/press-clip/british-author-barred-for-moral-t...
4y ago

hardlianotion 4y ago

As the late great George Best said: I spent a lot of money on booze, women and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.

IndySun 4y ago
Unfortunately for George, and his generation, they ended up with a more physically and mentally damaging, addictive drug.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

MDMA is one of the most wonderful chemicals I've tried. I've had experiences of bonding and closeness with people that words can not express. While it may be artificial to a degree, the experience is no less profound. The problem with these kinds of experiences is that it is fantasy made real to a degree and life without those experiences can seem dull. That can be tricky to reconcile and isn't really spoken about enough. That box can't be closed once open.

NovaVeles 4y ago
Alan Watts said it about LSD - but equally applies to MDMA. Use it like a scientist uses a microscope. Use it to observe but then you go away and work on what you have experienced. Don't get fixated on the observation stage.
- joshxyz 4y ago
  Another similar phrase: "Once you got the message, hang up the phone."
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - elevaet 4y ago
    Unfortunately he didn't apply that philosophy to the bottle, which killed him in the end.
- petre 4y ago
  I saw a documentary about LSD with Watts and a bunch if otger people, including A. Hoffman interviewed. What I wonder about is why do people who have consumed LSD or are into psychedelics exhibit all sorts of new age artefacts around their homes?
  - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
    If you're open to trying one thing that you're not "supposed to" then I think it's pretty unlikely that that's the only alt-thing you're into.

4ad 4y ago

I'm very pro legalization, I think the government should have no say in what people do with their bodies, and I seek new experiences. That being said, by reading what the author said in this article I am so happy I have never done MDMA nor had I anything to do with the culture around it. Conversations that seem profound, but aren't, making drugs part of your identity, thanks, not for me, and not for the type of people I want to be friends with. I am happy the events lived through by the author are perceived as having been positive by her today, but if I would have had the same experiences in my youth I would definitely think I wasted my life.

Nursie 4y ago
Conversations you have in ecstasy often are very profound, you may open up in ways you would not normally. You feel understood, and you feel heightened empathy towards others. You seem very judgemental. Edit: I am rate-limited and cannot respond below, so I'll add here. Your idea that this is all necessarily a false experience is, to put it bluntly, incorrect. You seem to think that people aren't really listening to each other and aren't really understanding each other, but in many cases they really are. I called you judgemental because you said you wouldn't want to be associated with that 'type of people', not because of your choice not to use a substance.
- 4ad 4y ago
  > Conversations you have in ecstasy often are very profound. Often repeated for all kinds of drugs, MDMA, psychedelics, even marijuana users claim this. But in my experience conversations are universally banal and only seem profound. > you may open up in ways you would not normally To me, this sounds like a nightmare. The idea that something artificial could change me in any way. And the idea that people desire this is scary. > You feel understood Exactly, you feel understood without being understood. > You seem very judgemental. For exercising my right to not do something while recognizing the right of others to do it? Oh, the irony.
  - octatrack 4y ago
    > To me, this sounds like a nightmare. The idea that something artificial could change me in any way. And the idea that people desire this is scary. For many, this is the whole point of taking psychedelics - to find self-improvement through these altered states. Science seem to confirm this works. [0] Why does it feel scary to you? [0] Psychedelics and Neuroplasticity: A Systematic Review Unraveling the Biological Underpinnings of Psychedelics - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34566723/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34566723/

nxmnxm99 4y ago

These are the same people who then blame capitalism for their mental health issues

octatrack 4y ago

The early decade or so of electronic music parties were truly magical. People were mostly on MDMA and/or LSD and did not consume much alcohol. Sadly, these days alcohol culture has taken over, and people often use cocaine or speed to remain energetic while drunk. It’s a different kind of vibe - more about escaping versus opening the mind as it is with MDMA or psychedelics. There are still places where more conscious partying happens. These are typically psychedelic trance or deep techno festivals. Alcohol truly is one of the worst drug we use - just look at Dr. David Nutt’s research [0]. I really wish young people clubbing these days gravitated towards less harmful drugs. [0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210.am...

drowsspa 4y ago
Yeah, I wish I found those places, I really hate alcohol. I do hope I see it legalized one day, because someone like me can't even think of where to start to look for them.
zoover2020 4y ago
Have you been to European dance/hard dance festivals? Most people are on X or other psychedelics there
mach1ne 4y ago
I’m sorry, but the article you linked is just sensational - its header claims alcohol is more harmful than heroin. Alcohol usage is extremely widespread, so of course its negative effects are more obvious in the population than other drugs. Personally, I’d rather be surrounded by a group of alcohol abusers than a group of psychedelics abusers.
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  If you give addicts pure heroin a lot of them can function just fine. We should consider the negative consequences of prohibition rather than just the drugs themselves.
  - 4y ago

malthaus 4y ago

A few minutes in and already commentors talk about "drugs" as if MDMA is in the same category as Heroin, while casually going out for a few beers later.

harvey9 4y ago
It is, if your categories are legal and illegal. Also, there are recreational heroin users who would grin at your implied meaning.
- pawelduda 4y ago
  Imagine inhaling carcinogenic smoke against your will because someone lights a cigarette next to your face, but then remembering it's all fine because the legal/illegal framework has got you covered.
  - harvey9 4y ago
    That's why the are separate laws around where you can and cannot smoke.

nibbleshifter 4y ago

MDMA has lead to some amazing life experiences I'm a bit confused by the following line in the article though: > all the money we spent on ecstasy, or E as we called it Usually a fiver a pill and one pills all you need. Double dropping is a waste of time.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
It's funny, no one says the same thing about alcohol, yet it can get very costly very quickly. I never bought MDMA or any other drug in nightclubs, but I've seen people dealing, and I think the price was €10 a pill. In the same places at the time, a random shitty drink was like €9 and a beer (330 mL) around 8. People would clearly drink more than a single drink a night.
- Throwaway48885 4y ago
  MDMA doesn't work the second time you take it the same day, you won't feel practically any effect at all. You have to wait some time. The next day it might work a little but if you try to do it 3 days in a row that's not going to work.
  - junon 4y ago
    It's also dangerous to do it that often. Minimum time between doses should be 3 months to be as safe as possible. People who drop more than once don't understand how it works and are just setting themselves up for medical emergencies.
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      3 months seems to be a fairly arbitrary length of time, but yes - its not a drug you want to take too often, and redosing is counterproductive. Its unfortunate that due to prohibition, a lot of harm reduction advice is based on folk wisdom kind of knowledge as opposed to hard science.
      - 4y ago

gyanchawdhary 4y ago

More info on the author https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/26/why-ill-be-spending-my-golden-years-with-my-golden-girls https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/26/why-ill...

4ad 4y ago
Good for her, but now I am even more convinced of my assessment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34379009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34379009
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  I agree with your linked assessment of MDMA-driven experience. However, her plan to retire with other singletons seems sensible. Why does it further convince you of your assessment of MDMA experiences?
  - 4ad 4y ago
    You can build things in life, or you can consume them. You can build a business, a family, a career in sports or arts, whatever it is that interests you and you work towards that goal. Everybody does a little bit of both, some people do one more preponderantly than the other. My experience is that drug users do less building and more consuming. Carpe diem philosophy and all that. This second article seems to reinforce that. Nothing wrong with this way of life, if it brings fulfilment to the author, more power to her, but I seek other kind of people.

lucidlive 4y ago

Brilliant article, thank you. Your experience mirrors mine from the 90s warehouse rave days in Montreal, Canada.

tezza 4y ago

A rather whimsical take on the scene which frustratingly skipped some of the best aspects Freedom… depending on where you lived (Sydney in my case) you could party every hour Friday night until Monday morning, linking up clubs Parking was easier, you could drive places without a permit Anonymity… there was no social media and cameras were few and far between Music… some of the sounds had never been heard before. Even in 2023 you can go into a wanker bar and hear stuff like Kruder and Dorfmeister or Dmitri from Paris playing overhead. Music sounds just stopped being made Scale… Gatecrasher, Creamfields, Ibiza, Love Parade, Bush Doof, Raves … it is less these days or more atomised 1999-Millenium… just an amazing transition time that cannot be bottled

andy_ppp 4y ago

It’s interesting how negative all the people who seem not to have done MDMA in this thread are… and how positive the article and those who have experienced it are.

iLoveOncall 4y ago
Ask a serial killer how killing is and he'll probably say it's a positive experience. It's not because someone that experienced something is saying it's a positive thing that it is necessarily true.
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  You are proving my point here… a really strange and negative analogy to use that makes zero sense.
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    I assumed your post was a veiled way to say that people that didn't experience it shouldn't have a say on it.
noodleman 4y ago
Can you not read, or did you just choose not to? There are a range of experiences from both sides of the discussion.
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  You could rewrite this comment as "I think you are wrong here, I felt there are a range of experiences from both sides of the discussion." The HN guidelines are quite clear on this...

throwaway6001 4y ago

I'm with computers since ZX80, now run my own IT company, knocking wood. I was heavily into DJ'ing for about 6 years of my life about 20 years ago. I'm talking MDMA, meth, all sorts of stimulants - multi-day partying, LSD, ketamine, whatever... Things I wish someone would tell me earlier: - All this stimulation never, never goes without payment. MDMA is a stimulant. You always pay later with something. Think destroyed sinuses, which I can still feel 20 years later, ED, weight issues, bad teeth. - Stimulants are not as addictive as what we call "heavy drugs," but they can easily become the way of life - there is a strong psychological addiction which leads to difficulties of moderation. If you are into pattern where they are available on a regular basis, it will be difficult to break out from all that stuff - meeting friends, having great time, hanging out, and so on... - Some of my friends have really damaged themselves along the way, and I'm talking psychological/psychiatric issues that they still experience today. What is good for one could be poisonous for the other. It's difficult to have a frame of reference if everyone around is high. - I eventually ended up with this: Don't put anything in your body that isn't grown naturally. Shrooms and weed are so much better... Almost if the nature is guiding us. There are subtle nuances. (Of course there are myriads of natural poisons that will kill or damage you.) - Having a respectful approach to all mind-altering substances helps to stay out of trouble. Unfortunately, with our era of "playground Internet" it's so much difficult. (Where's entheogen.org?) All those substances are teachers.

ProllyInfamous 4y ago
It was 19 years ago that speed overuse contributed to my first lost tooth. Four months ago I FINALLY was able to want/afford/get dental implant_S (plural, b/c I lost myself MORE teefs) — WOW — itself a psychological experience (sedation or not)! In two months, I will be getting my fake teeth installed onto aforementioned implanted posts — I have cried uncontrollably about this, for years and presently, but just cannot begin to stress how much of a mental (and physical) accomplishment this will be. ---- I'm not here to harp and tell "nobody don't do nothin," but live your life in moderation AND BRUSH YOU TEETH!

snarfy 4y ago

I really miss the early 2000 rave scene. Some songs still give me flashbacks.

derrida 4y ago

> "It started with that rush known as “coming up.” Different people experienced it in different ways, but for me it was an overwhelming feeling of warmth and a glowing sensation that flooded my body. My friends had all taken it before me and told me what to expect; they never left me until I had come up. And then, as well as having an urge to dance to the music that inhabited me, I felt a connectedness to people that I had never felt before. I felt a surge of empathy for my fellow clubbers; it was heavenly. The rest of the night was filled with what I can only describe as ineffable joy." I've had MDMA like this. No regrets. Years later I found better - a 1 hr long full body orgasms - thank god it was alone in kutis seperated by forest - i sounded like meg ryan in "Sleepless in Seattle" for about an hr or two each day - but where did I find this? In myself doing nothing other than scanning my body in meditation and letting the breath calm me. Externally: it was in a monastery meditating with a group of celibate monks in the middle of the forest - and that is the foot hills - not yet "jhana". This is properly why people are celibate - they are not idiots. I found the cause for that. It wasn't in self denial or asceticism but actually - to reach something deeper. There are of course people celibate for the wrong reasons. BUt I got an idea of why. Also in finding this pleasure its based directly on the lack of interest one finds in sensory pleasure which ironically frees energy that produces pleasure in ones senses and body - I see also how the ability to sort of "feel out" or feel oneself into this is a great service to society as the act of practicing this is finding the internal harmony in oneself and that manifests as external harmony. This is why people were properly monks and nuns - but also the source of the institutions wisdom and power and later domination by the types that just want power and so on.

bennysonething 4y ago

Hrm, I'm in my 40s. I got a criminal record at 20 for being caught in a club with 3 pills. It still didn't stop me. I continued doing Es for a long time. It was good at the time but I wish I hadn't done them. It's like a lot of other drugs, once you've done it everything becomes dull without it. I used to think about them all the time. Until it got to the point were I hated them. The come downs became horrific (once you've done a lot of them, hangovers don't come close). I was given some mdma at a festival 5 years ago. I hated it. It was strong but I hated the feeling of being out of my mind. Mainly I think all I got out of it was a ruined short term memory and wasted time recovering from endless nights out. I don't look back with rose tinted specs. I regret it.

noodleman 4y ago
Well said. These drug-positive articles never appropriately discuss the negative side effects of the lifestyle in a way that seems realistic. Several people from my youth never made it to adulthood to regret the things they did as a result of drugs. Even "harmless" drugs like MDMA have consequences.
- _a_a_a_ 4y ago
  Only a fool would consider any drug harmless, obviously all (including MDMA) can have consequences.
  - dustymcp 4y ago
    Anything is dangerous if you are reckless, i bet druguse with proper guidance would be way better than the advice you get in the trailerpark.
  - MacsHeadroom 4y ago
    Recreational horseback riding is statistically more deadly and more likely to result in serious injury than ecstasy use. [0] Of course everything has risks. But nobody demands an article about the pleasures of equestrianism to include a warning about traumatic brain injury and paralysis risks. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/drugs-alcohol-drugs-policy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/drugs-...

xg15 4y ago

It's definitely an interesting article, but I think here it's really worth to click around a bit and get aware of the context it's posted in. The site it's published on, Filter Magazine, describes itself [1]: > Our mission is to advocate through journalism for rational and compassionate approaches to drug use, drug policy and human rights. Sponsors include [2] Juul Labs, Phillip Morris International, The American Vaping Association and Knowledge Action Change (see below). The author of the article herself is a grantee of Knowledge Action Change [3]. KAC describes itself [4] as an advocacy organization for "tobacco harm reduction" which basically means promoting "alternative" tobacco products such as vapes. [5] None of this means that the article is wrong, but it is definitely not unbiased. I think it makes a difference that the author is not some random person who reflects about her drug use growing up and comes to the conclusion that it actually had lasting positive effects - but someone who actively lobbies for drug use as part of her job. [1] https://filtermag.org/about-filter/amp/ https://filtermag.org/about-filter/amp/ [2] https://filtermag.org/about-the-influence-foundation/amp/ https://filtermag.org/about-the-influence-foundation/amp/ [3] https://filtermag.org/author/kiran-sidhu/amp/ https://filtermag.org/author/kiran-sidhu/amp/ [4] https://kachange.eu/#about-us https://kachange.eu/#about-us [5] https://thrsp.net/introduction-to-the-thrsp/ https://thrsp.net/introduction-to-the-thrsp/

_a_a_a_ 4y ago
Thank you. Bias always needs a revealing.
garbagetime 4y ago
> it is definitely not unbiased. Can one really reach that conclusion from your evidence? A person can recieve sponsorships without allowing that fact to influence the person's writing.
- ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
  Are Philip morris getting into the ecstasy business? Seems unlikely.
  - 4y ago

Lio 4y ago

The Halcyon (and on) days of youth. Sorry, could resist the Orbital reference. When I think back to that time that's what always comes to mind for some reason. That and a big smile.

danjc 4y ago

Would be good to see some research exploring the relationship between recreational drug use and neurological conditions such as dementia, anxiety, depression, etc. Hindsight is 20/20 vision and all that but I'd definitely choose a healthy mind over a bunch of brief euphoric experiences.

pas 4y ago
this is the promise of large population longitudinal studies, because they can properly deal with the endogeneity problem. (are people taking drugs because their life is not-ok, or are drugs making them not-ok, etc.)

joemazerino 4y ago

I'd like to hear how the author is doing now. Family? Good job? Mentally balanced?

ohyoutravel 4y ago
They have a good job with a firm funded by Phillip Morris and others lobbying for more drug use via articles like this one. It’s like going to school to get a PhD in Egyptology and then taking a job as a professor of Egyptology. Good gig for the training if you can get it.

rmac 4y ago

this article is quixotic at best. the author states the common clubber exchange was: "name/location/drug?" then waxes nostalgic about "open conversations" on pills, citing a 2 line dialogue with someone about sexuality and masculinity? red flags: -how were they having these intimate conversations in clubs blasting massive attack? -yes i do believe MDMA can be used to facilitate open communication, but also think that this superpower would be better served to create/restore lasting relationships vs single-dose convos in clubs -none of the potential downsides to her drug use were listed. iirc, back then mdma was frequently cut with meth. the author doesn't mention safety around testing your drugs or long-term mental / physical issues stemming from large-dose/chronic MDMA usage. not to diminish their nostalgia and their decisions -- go do drugs. legalize .*

hgsgm 4y ago
MDMA make you feel in love. It doesn't matter what you talk about or how much.
coldtea 4y ago
>in clubs blasting massive attack? Somewhat pedantic, but it's not like "massive attack" is a heavy sound, or something that dance clubs would be blasting...
- rmac 4y ago
  underground clubs I attended all played music very loudly, and few had "chillout" rooms where you could actually talk. even in the bathrooms you had to scream...

WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago

Her next post will be "Where have all the good men went".

koalala 4y ago

i tried nearly drug under the sun back in the day, played in bands, wrote the best songs during drug comedowns and partied like an animal until suddenly growing up around 30 and getting my bachelor's in physics, a family and starting a business. i have no regrets. mdma, lsd, ketamine and nitrous were my favourites. i still smoke weed now and then on weekends, never drink because i don't really enjoy it. i'm from the netherlands in case that matters.

0daym 4y ago

because she remained the same person that she was back then, she didn't grow up, so yea, where's the regret going to come from

lostmsu 4y ago
Also got sponsored by drug dealers to write this article.

jokoon 4y ago

While it's true the war on drugs has gone too far, saying illegal drugs are "not so bad for your health" is a bit much. The most disturbing is reading people who says psilo is better than antidepressants to treat depression, because it's FDA approved in some situation under supervision. It's funny how many experts you can find about this subject online.

throw__away7391 4y ago

I don't think this author ever makes the point of the title. I would title this instead "doing drugs when you're young is fun".