6 ms·

This seems fine to me. She was paid hourly, which is nonexempt work. If your boss found out you were getting someone to stamp your timesheet several hours befo

by KMnO4 4y ago

This seems fine to me. She was paid hourly, which is nonexempt work. If your boss found out you were getting someone to stamp your timesheet several hours before you actually came into work every day, that would be considered theft as well. If she were on salary, it would be a different story, because exempt workers get paid for the job getting done, not the hours it takes.

EForEndeavour 4y ago
> exempt workers get paid for the job getting done, not the hours it takes A recent full-time contract of mine stated (slight paraphrase) "as a fulltime employee, you are required to devote all working hours to your position. Your working hours will typically be 9:30am-5pm, and you will be required to be reachable and ready to work during this time."
- hgsgm 4y ago
  Yeah "exempt" doesn't mean "choose your own hours", it means you get paid enough that you don't get to claim overtime.
ape4 4y ago
She's in BC, Canada. I believe "nonexempt" is a US term.
- jdsully 4y ago
  There’s a similar concept in Canada
mouse_ 4y ago
Would you go so far as to extend that to mouse jigglers? Seems like a whole can of worms to me.
kelnos 4y ago
I have no problem with the general idea of needing to pay back your employer if you lie about the number of hours you've worked. But this pervasive electronic surveillance has to stop. The end result of all that is a lot worse than someone getting away with 50 hours of paid work they didn't actually do. Not sure how much "AI" this TimeCamp software uses, if any, but it's quite easy to imagine a near-future world where some software says you didn't do the work you said you did, and you have no recourse, and the method the software uses to determine this is proprietary and secret, and no one really can explain how or why its AI draws the conclusions it makes anyway.
- jjulius 4y ago
  I'll preface this by saying that I largely agree with you. But just for shits and giggles, what kind of recourse, if any, should an employer of remote-working employees have here? If you're required to come into the office, it's pretty easy for your employer to tell when you lie about the number of hours worked. With remote work, that becomes quite the challenge. What's an acceptable stopgap?
  - danielheath 4y ago
    I mean… they could pay for results instead of hours. For a WFH desk job without real-time latency requirements, an hourly rate makes no sense at all to me.
    - richwater 4y ago
      I assure you moving to "results based pay" for the type of labor that is paid hourly will make their lives _more_ miserable, not less. If you think measurement is abusive now, wait till everything they do is tracked and monitored to determine _results_.
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        That appears to be what they were already doing though. Which is why they turned on the monitoring software.
      - danielheath 4y ago
        Results are most easily tracked when work is submitted; hours can only be tracked by intrusive monitoring.
      - msrenee 4y ago
        I interpreted it as "this is the amount of work that should be accomplished in a week" rather than a piecework system. Basically figure out what 40 hours worth of work looks like and if that's getting done, it shouldn't be a big deal if documents aren't being opened and closed often enough. Sounds like she should have set something up to open and close documents automatically if none have been accessed for a certain period of time.
49erfangoniners 4y ago
[flagged]
mc32 4y ago
Yep, not only that, she sued the company for firing her due to time theft. Then the Tribunal not only found that she had no case, they ordered her to give the company restitution. Some people have gall and don't know when to --uhhm, quit.
fargle 4y ago
> exempt workers get paid for the job getting done, not the hours it takes incorrect. exempt vs. non-exempt is a federal labor law term in the US. https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html exempt means you are exempt from the 1938 FLSA rules, which is when you earn above a certain salary or perform certain duties - manager vs. sales, etc. you are not guaranteed overtime pay (time-and-a-half, double on sundays), etc. non-exempt means subject to all the FLSA rules. typically white color salaried jobs are exempt and hourly jobs are not but not always. due to the salary limits, there are jobs that are salaried that are non-exempt. and salaried jobs are not always paid for getting the job done vs. hours. engineering firms (apparently accounting) and other firms that charge clients by the hour still require timekeeping by their salaried employees. mis-charging is worse than wage theft in this case it causes the firm to perpetrate fraud on the client. many salaried firms have requirements for 40 hour minimum as well with or without timekeeping. if you're exempt you have less, not more, labor laws that apply. you can agree to a job that requires you to be in the office or online or whatever for 47 1/8 hours a week, and then if you don't do it, you can be fired just for that regardless of whether you got the job done. the only point is to clarify that she may or may not be exempt, and may or may not have been hourly or salaried - any combination of these can still be required to work certain hours and keep time records. > if she were on salary, it would be a different story not really. you can still mis-charge on salary, which is extremely serious which is fraud and time-theft. and she clearly wasn't "getting the job done" either. karma. i absolutely love this story because the company didn't even go after her for the lost time until in a genius move she sued them. it's pretty obvious she was a poor employee on a pip within less that a year of starting. and then, knowingly on a pip, still mis-charges, etc.?

by KMnO4 4y ago

EForEndeavour 4y ago

> exempt workers get paid for the job getting done, not the hours it takes A recent full-time contract of mine stated (slight paraphrase) "as a fulltime employee, you are required to devote all working hours to your position. Your working hours will typically be 9:30am-5pm, and you will be required to be reachable and ready to work during this time."

hgsgm 4y ago
Yeah "exempt" doesn't mean "choose your own hours", it means you get paid enough that you don't get to claim overtime.

ape4 4y ago

She's in BC, Canada. I believe "nonexempt" is a US term.

jdsully 4y ago
There’s a similar concept in Canada

mouse_ 4y ago

Would you go so far as to extend that to mouse jigglers? Seems like a whole can of worms to me.

kelnos 4y ago

I have no problem with the general idea of needing to pay back your employer if you lie about the number of hours you've worked. But this pervasive electronic surveillance has to stop. The end result of all that is a lot worse than someone getting away with 50 hours of paid work they didn't actually do. Not sure how much "AI" this TimeCamp software uses, if any, but it's quite easy to imagine a near-future world where some software says you didn't do the work you said you did, and you have no recourse, and the method the software uses to determine this is proprietary and secret, and no one really can explain how or why its AI draws the conclusions it makes anyway.

jjulius 4y ago
I'll preface this by saying that I largely agree with you. But just for shits and giggles, what kind of recourse, if any, should an employer of remote-working employees have here? If you're required to come into the office, it's pretty easy for your employer to tell when you lie about the number of hours worked. With remote work, that becomes quite the challenge. What's an acceptable stopgap?
- danielheath 4y ago
  I mean… they could pay for results instead of hours. For a WFH desk job without real-time latency requirements, an hourly rate makes no sense at all to me.
  - richwater 4y ago
    I assure you moving to "results based pay" for the type of labor that is paid hourly will make their lives _more_ miserable, not less. If you think measurement is abusive now, wait till everything they do is tracked and monitored to determine _results_.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      That appears to be what they were already doing though. Which is why they turned on the monitoring software.
    - danielheath 4y ago
      Results are most easily tracked when work is submitted; hours can only be tracked by intrusive monitoring.
    - msrenee 4y ago
      I interpreted it as "this is the amount of work that should be accomplished in a week" rather than a piecework system. Basically figure out what 40 hours worth of work looks like and if that's getting done, it shouldn't be a big deal if documents aren't being opened and closed often enough. Sounds like she should have set something up to open and close documents automatically if none have been accessed for a certain period of time.

49erfangoniners 4y ago

[flagged]

mc32 4y ago

Yep, not only that, she sued the company for firing her due to time theft. Then the Tribunal not only found that she had no case, they ordered her to give the company restitution. Some people have gall and don't know when to --uhhm, quit.

fargle 4y ago

> exempt workers get paid for the job getting done, not the hours it takes incorrect. exempt vs. non-exempt is a federal labor law term in the US. https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html exempt means you are exempt from the 1938 FLSA rules, which is when you earn above a certain salary or perform certain duties - manager vs. sales, etc. you are not guaranteed overtime pay (time-and-a-half, double on sundays), etc. non-exempt means subject to all the FLSA rules. typically white color salaried jobs are exempt and hourly jobs are not but not always. due to the salary limits, there are jobs that are salaried that are non-exempt. and salaried jobs are not always paid for getting the job done vs. hours. engineering firms (apparently accounting) and other firms that charge clients by the hour still require timekeeping by their salaried employees. mis-charging is worse than wage theft in this case it causes the firm to perpetrate fraud on the client. many salaried firms have requirements for 40 hour minimum as well with or without timekeeping. if you're exempt you have less, not more, labor laws that apply. you can agree to a job that requires you to be in the office or online or whatever for 47 1/8 hours a week, and then if you don't do it, you can be fired just for that regardless of whether you got the job done. the only point is to clarify that she may or may not be exempt, and may or may not have been hourly or salaried - any combination of these can still be required to work certain hours and keep time records. > if she were on salary, it would be a different story not really. you can still mis-charge on salary, which is extremely serious which is fraud and time-theft. and she clearly wasn't "getting the job done" either. karma. i absolutely love this story because the company didn't even go after her for the lost time until in a genius move she sued them. it's pretty obvious she was a poor employee on a pip within less that a year of starting. and then, knowingly on a pip, still mis-charges, etc.?