8 ms·

As with many simple ubiquitous consumer products from pizza boxes to mouse traps, the answer to the question "why hasn't someone invented a better one of these?

As with many simple ubiquitous consumer products from pizza boxes to mouse traps, the answer to the question "why hasn't someone invented a better one of these?" is "they have, but it it's more expensive." Many things in life could be better. The reason they're not is the same reason airplanes are uncomfortable and broadcast TV has obnoxious ads: the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version. The same is true for pizza boxes.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
This is also the same reason why so many newspapers and magazines are filled with fluffer BS articles such as this one instead of real investigative journalism: these types of articles are much cheaper and quicker to produce than investigative journalism. These empty complaint type articles are basically the website doing the minimum to fill space and get clicks.
mindslight 4y ago
> the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version I really hate the framing that puts this on consumers as if they're just stingy. The reality is that we have an economy that strongly discourages most people from choosing any option besides the cheapest. When someone comes up with a less expensive way of doing something, the Fed interprets this as a problem and creates enough new currency to make sure the cost of living gets more expensive regardless. So rather than a choice between less expensive and more expensive, what consumers are actually confronted with is a choice between slightly more expensive and much more expensive.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  I made the same argument recently when someone repeated the line “air travel is bad because consumers will always choose the cheapest option.” I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior, except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Part of the trouble with these is that, due to companies desiring to maximally exploit price discrimination or because of lack of economies of scale or whatever, the better thing is often unreasonably more expensive, so you don't really get a signal of what people would want without that price-gouging or other price-increasing effects. Take refrigerators. There are a few little things they could add to every single fridge that'd make them nicer, probably for $20 or so per unit, call it $100 by the time it hits retail. So your $1,100 fridge could be $1,200 but quite a bit nicer. Instead, you can't get that stuff unless you spring for the $2,000+ fridge (think: things like rollers on drawers and shelves, slightly nicer finishes, that kind of thing). Do consumers not "want" that since only a tiny minority buy fridges with those features? No, of course that's not the case. But because there is no "cheap, but with all the cheap bonuses included, so just slightly more expensive" option, it looks that way.
    - tshaddox 4y ago
      I agree with that, and I think it aligns with the claim that customer preferences ought not be blamed.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior I'm not. Most consumers are fickle, irrational, and often price-sensitive. They buy the $20 blender from Walmart that has a motor that will release the blue smoke in 6 months rather than the $50 blender that will last 5 years of frequent usage. Sometimes this is because of the whole "being poor is expensive" thing, but many times it's not. > except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding. I think this applies to airlines. I roll my eyes when someone says "I will never fly Delta/United/Alaska/etc again" because if you joined in every person's boycott because of one or two bad experiences they had, you'd never fly. They all will have delays, cancellations, and lost luggage. I have absolutely zero loyalty or avoidance to any airline. I just go to Google Flights and pick who has the cheapest itinerary that doesn't suck too bad.
gumby 4y ago
Tying this insight back to a popular and insightful HN trope: https://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html https://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
xg15 4y ago
Fully agree except for the "the consumer wants it that way" take. The consumer "wants" this in the same way they "want" ad breaks, sugar-swamped food or addictive phone apps: It's the most shitty version of a product that a sufficient part of the population is still willing to pay money for, likely because there are other advantages that just so make up for the shittyness (or in the case of addictiveness because the product just manages to hack the consumer's brain). This is all about serving the lowest possible quality for the highest possible price, nothing about that has to do with "preferences".
- rizzom5000 4y ago
  > This is all about serving the lowest possible quality for the highest possible price, nothing about that has to do with "preferences". I'm trying to follow this logically. Are you saying that if there were two options for a burger right next to another; say a McDonald's and a 5 Guys - the choice to buy a cheeseburger from 5 Guys instead of McDonald's has nothing to do with my preferences? I can come up with at least a dozen criteria for which the 5 Guys burger is objectively superior to the McDonald's offering, but choosing to pay more for that objectively superior product does not reveal preference?
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    You gonna pick McDonald's instead because the Five Guys burger box is cheaper and doesn't function quite as well? Should we take your still choosing Five Guys as a sign that you prefer that box?
    - kuboble 4y ago
      Yes. exactly. Quoting GP: > the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version.
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        Well, with non-diversified commodities, in a market with instant arbitration and universal complete knowledge about the products the Econ 101 models work. On the real world, they don't.
TradingPlaces 4y ago
The perfect pizza box has been invented, but Apple hoards that IP, and keeps it from The People. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/78/74/d5/3374ac3799a99b/US20120024859A1.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/78/74/d5/3374ac3...
- danaris 4y ago
  Until 2029, when the patent expires and anyone can make one...
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  In typical Apple fashion, this pizza box only holds perfectly round pizzas, churned in a factory to all look the same, ignoring the work of craftsmen and artisans that make non-round pizzas.
  - microtherion 4y ago
    For the benefit of readers who may not realize you’re joking, it may be worth pointing out that this box was designed for use in Apple’s cafeterias, which serve artisanal pizzas baked in wood fired ovens: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa784v/sources-apples-pizza-is-very-good https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa784v/sources-apples-pizza-...
- trynewideas 4y ago
  https://designawards.core77.com/Packaging/62804/Zume-Pizza-Pizza-Pod https://designawards.core77.com/Packaging/62804/Zume-Pizza-P... Zume, which pivoted from kitchen robotics and IoT to pizza: https://archive.ph/TP9nb https://archive.ph/TP9nb To food packaging: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-zume-become-packaging-innovator-alex-garden https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-zume-become-packaging-inn... Zume no longer lists the Pizza Pod in their catalog: https://docsend.com/view/gxeeruv7mi3mbg4p https://docsend.com/view/gxeeruv7mi3mbg4p There are knockoffs going for $1.25/unit (uline's equivalent traditional square cardboard box is $0.78/unit, Pratt sells square cardboard boxes custom-printed for $0.84-$1.48/unit): https://www.goodstartpackaging.com/pizzaround-pizza-box-12-100-count/ https://www.goodstartpackaging.com/pizzaround-pizza-box-12-1...
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
> "and broadcast TV has obnoxious ads" Did consumers truly have a choice here? Yes, in many cases revealed preferences caused a slippery slope, but in other cases consumer choice is effectively non-existant - it's all on the producers.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
> airplanes are uncomfortable Or, hear me out - FAA is in Boeing pockets. Being able to transport 2-3x more passengers equals 2-3x less airplanes sales. If you think about it’s probably easiest way to massively reduce airplane co2 emissions too.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

This is also the same reason why so many newspapers and magazines are filled with fluffer BS articles such as this one instead of real investigative journalism: these types of articles are much cheaper and quicker to produce than investigative journalism. These empty complaint type articles are basically the website doing the minimum to fill space and get clicks.

mindslight 4y ago

> the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version I really hate the framing that puts this on consumers as if they're just stingy. The reality is that we have an economy that strongly discourages most people from choosing any option besides the cheapest. When someone comes up with a less expensive way of doing something, the Fed interprets this as a problem and creates enough new currency to make sure the cost of living gets more expensive regardless. So rather than a choice between less expensive and more expensive, what consumers are actually confronted with is a choice between slightly more expensive and much more expensive.

tshaddox 4y ago
I made the same argument recently when someone repeated the line “air travel is bad because consumers will always choose the cheapest option.” I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior, except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Part of the trouble with these is that, due to companies desiring to maximally exploit price discrimination or because of lack of economies of scale or whatever, the better thing is often unreasonably more expensive, so you don't really get a signal of what people would want without that price-gouging or other price-increasing effects. Take refrigerators. There are a few little things they could add to every single fridge that'd make them nicer, probably for $20 or so per unit, call it $100 by the time it hits retail. So your $1,100 fridge could be $1,200 but quite a bit nicer. Instead, you can't get that stuff unless you spring for the $2,000+ fridge (think: things like rollers on drawers and shelves, slightly nicer finishes, that kind of thing). Do consumers not "want" that since only a tiny minority buy fridges with those features? No, of course that's not the case. But because there is no "cheap, but with all the cheap bonuses included, so just slightly more expensive" option, it looks that way.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    I agree with that, and I think it aligns with the claim that customer preferences ought not be blamed.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior I'm not. Most consumers are fickle, irrational, and often price-sensitive. They buy the $20 blender from Walmart that has a motor that will release the blue smoke in 6 months rather than the $50 blender that will last 5 years of frequent usage. Sometimes this is because of the whole "being poor is expensive" thing, but many times it's not. > except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding. I think this applies to airlines. I roll my eyes when someone says "I will never fly Delta/United/Alaska/etc again" because if you joined in every person's boycott because of one or two bad experiences they had, you'd never fly. They all will have delays, cancellations, and lost luggage. I have absolutely zero loyalty or avoidance to any airline. I just go to Google Flights and pick who has the cheapest itinerary that doesn't suck too bad.

gumby 4y ago

Tying this insight back to a popular and insightful HN trope: https://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html https://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

xg15 4y ago

Fully agree except for the "the consumer wants it that way" take. The consumer "wants" this in the same way they "want" ad breaks, sugar-swamped food or addictive phone apps: It's the most shitty version of a product that a sufficient part of the population is still willing to pay money for, likely because there are other advantages that just so make up for the shittyness (or in the case of addictiveness because the product just manages to hack the consumer's brain). This is all about serving the lowest possible quality for the highest possible price, nothing about that has to do with "preferences".

rizzom5000 4y ago
> This is all about serving the lowest possible quality for the highest possible price, nothing about that has to do with "preferences". I'm trying to follow this logically. Are you saying that if there were two options for a burger right next to another; say a McDonald's and a 5 Guys - the choice to buy a cheeseburger from 5 Guys instead of McDonald's has nothing to do with my preferences? I can come up with at least a dozen criteria for which the 5 Guys burger is objectively superior to the McDonald's offering, but choosing to pay more for that objectively superior product does not reveal preference?
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  You gonna pick McDonald's instead because the Five Guys burger box is cheaper and doesn't function quite as well? Should we take your still choosing Five Guys as a sign that you prefer that box?
  - kuboble 4y ago
    Yes. exactly. Quoting GP: > the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Well, with non-diversified commodities, in a market with instant arbitration and universal complete knowledge about the products the Econ 101 models work. On the real world, they don't.

TradingPlaces 4y ago

The perfect pizza box has been invented, but Apple hoards that IP, and keeps it from The People. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/78/74/d5/3374ac3799a99b/US20120024859A1.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/78/74/d5/3374ac3...

danaris 4y ago
Until 2029, when the patent expires and anyone can make one...
ohgodplsno 4y ago
In typical Apple fashion, this pizza box only holds perfectly round pizzas, churned in a factory to all look the same, ignoring the work of craftsmen and artisans that make non-round pizzas.
- microtherion 4y ago
  For the benefit of readers who may not realize you’re joking, it may be worth pointing out that this box was designed for use in Apple’s cafeterias, which serve artisanal pizzas baked in wood fired ovens: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa784v/sources-apples-pizza-is-very-good https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa784v/sources-apples-pizza-...
trynewideas 4y ago
https://designawards.core77.com/Packaging/62804/Zume-Pizza-Pizza-Pod https://designawards.core77.com/Packaging/62804/Zume-Pizza-P... Zume, which pivoted from kitchen robotics and IoT to pizza: https://archive.ph/TP9nb https://archive.ph/TP9nb To food packaging: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-zume-become-packaging-innovator-alex-garden https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-zume-become-packaging-inn... Zume no longer lists the Pizza Pod in their catalog: https://docsend.com/view/gxeeruv7mi3mbg4p https://docsend.com/view/gxeeruv7mi3mbg4p There are knockoffs going for $1.25/unit (uline's equivalent traditional square cardboard box is $0.78/unit, Pratt sells square cardboard boxes custom-printed for $0.84-$1.48/unit): https://www.goodstartpackaging.com/pizzaround-pizza-box-12-100-count/ https://www.goodstartpackaging.com/pizzaround-pizza-box-12-1...

anonymouskimmer 4y ago

> "and broadcast TV has obnoxious ads" Did consumers truly have a choice here? Yes, in many cases revealed preferences caused a slippery slope, but in other cases consumer choice is effectively non-existant - it's all on the producers.

dzhiurgis 4y ago

> airplanes are uncomfortable Or, hear me out - FAA is in Boeing pockets. Being able to transport 2-3x more passengers equals 2-3x less airplanes sales. If you think about it’s probably easiest way to massively reduce airplane co2 emissions too.