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My take on this is that Tesla are still targeting the top ~10% (maybe?) of the car market and so it's unsurprising that they're starting to struggle with their

My take on this is that Tesla are still targeting the top ~10% (maybe?) of the car market and so it's unsurprising that they're starting to struggle with their pricing. Something I think a lot of people, particularly in car enthusiast circles, or highly paid Hacker News reader circles, is just how little people want to pay for cars. A £45k car is an expensive car for most people. Bearing in mind that there are plenty of good cars at £25k (new) and plenty of supply of second hand cars that are only a few years old and much cheaper. As a comparison, I'm happy to spend £2k on a laptop, but the vast majority of people are buying in the £500-1k range (or replacing with a cheap tablet etc). A £2k laptop is probably in the top ~10% of the laptop market, as much as it might seem totally normal to me. Tesla really need to expand to more of the market, with, say, a $35,000 car. I'd love to see a small hatchback for £20k from them, and I think it would do very well in Europe. Much better than an £80k ~tank~ truck.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
josefresco 4y ago
> A £45k car is an expensive car for most people. I agree but there was an article shared here the other day that outlined how new car prices are higher than ever. The average new car (non-luxury) price was/is around $45K
- danpalmer 4y ago
  Good point, although that may be a bit US centric, and that's only new cars – much of the market is second hand cars. I don't know the numbers for Europe/UK, but anecdotally, that sort of price doesn't seem at all common to me, whereas I do know people who would only ever consider buying second hand cars. Plus the fact that trucks aren't a thing here probably brings down our prices significantly. A quick look at the Office of National Statistics suggests that the average UK price is £36500 for electric/hybrid, or £29000 for petrol/diesel (still the majority of the market here). That seems quite a bit lower than the US, and is still only the new car market.
- gambiting 4y ago
  They are, but Tesla is still massively above average prices(at least here in UK). Even the cheapest model at(now) £42k would be very much a luxury purchase and in fact would be subject to "premium vehicle" tax every year. The best selling vehicle in the UK at the moment is still a Nissan Qashqai, a family friendly crossover, starting at £26k. A basic model 3 doesn't compare in terms of usability, Model Y does but it's £20k(another very decent car) more than the Qashqai. And finally, I imagine most Brits can't actually afford a £42k vehicle - even on decent finance that's £500-600 a month - that's how much I pay in mortgage for my house.
xnx 4y ago
Not that I expect many people are doing total cost of ownership calculation, but even with a higher upfront cost, EVs have a lot of cost benefits with much less maintenance and fuel costs. You do spend more on tires though.
- canucklady 4y ago
  I bought my almost-new Subaru Forester for $17000. There is no amount of maintenance and fuel savings that would make up the ~$18k difference to buy a _used_ Tesla. I could have gone even cheaper but I wanted premium features like AWD and lots of space for my business. People who talk about TCO for a car are already setting the bar crazy high to justify buying an expensive car that they don't really need.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  A lot of people assert that EVs have a lower cost of ownership, but there just isn't a lot of data to support that. Yes, on the one hand you have fewer moving parts. On the other you have a huge amount of new tech and a rapacious service model. For example, Teslas are more expensive to maintain than the ICE industry average - $832 versus $650 for other cars. https://jalopnik.com/advisor/tesla-maintenance-cost/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20Tesla%20vehicles%20are%20quite,reliability%20score%20among%20all%20automakers https://jalopnik.com/advisor/tesla-maintenance-cost/#:~:text.... In terms of fuel, well that very much depends on what happens to electricity prices when a lot of people start plugging in their EVs. Again, people assume they will just remain the same in response to an increase in demand, but color me skeptical. The only way electricity prices can avoid rapidly increasing is if it becomes illegal for you to plug in your EV. You should in general be suspicious of anyone making claims about total cost of ownership calculations, and heavily discount such claims -- whether it is your local IBM/Oracle salesman or your local car salesman. It is usually a mechanism to justify higher up front purchase prices. Next time someone refuses to be price competitive with other options but makes an appeal to TCO, ask them to put that into writing -- that your TCO will be lower otherwise you will get a refund on the purchase price. Just watch their mouth drop.
  - huijzer 4y ago
RobertRoberts 4y ago
Maybe that market is current saturated? And they are now trying to get lower income buyers. In most of the world (my rough guess) a Tesla costs as much or more than a house. Not an easy thing to invest in that rusts, crashes and wears out.
timeon 4y ago
> A £45k car is an expensive car for most people. I have paid for 2nd hand car about 3k. Can imagine to buy new one for 20k but as someone who does not use it daily, 45k seems crazy for a car.
Fatnino 4y ago
My car cost me $2k. It gets me everywhere that I need to be and even most places that I simply want to be. If I want to drive over the mountains or 500miles on a road trip, I just have to remember to pack a toolbox. Generally simple fixes easily done. Practically speaking, I just rent a car for a couple of days for those harder outings rather than put my elderly car through that. Anyway, your laptop cost more than my car.
- 7e 4y ago
  I imagine their time is also worth a lot more than yours.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    I think it's also a safety thing. I am always surprised at parents who clearly have enough money when they get their kids really f'ed up cars. I even know of a family who lost their kid in a car crash, and it would've most likely been fine had they not "tried to teach him a lesson" and gotten him a reasonable car. So yeah, my main reason for driving a pricier car is, well, less chance of death and leaving behind my family.
  - Fatnino 4y ago
    You're right, they deserve to be fleeced more than me.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

josefresco 4y ago

> A £45k car is an expensive car for most people. I agree but there was an article shared here the other day that outlined how new car prices are higher than ever. The average new car (non-luxury) price was/is around $45K

danpalmer 4y ago
Good point, although that may be a bit US centric, and that's only new cars – much of the market is second hand cars. I don't know the numbers for Europe/UK, but anecdotally, that sort of price doesn't seem at all common to me, whereas I do know people who would only ever consider buying second hand cars. Plus the fact that trucks aren't a thing here probably brings down our prices significantly. A quick look at the Office of National Statistics suggests that the average UK price is £36500 for electric/hybrid, or £29000 for petrol/diesel (still the majority of the market here). That seems quite a bit lower than the US, and is still only the new car market.
gambiting 4y ago
They are, but Tesla is still massively above average prices(at least here in UK). Even the cheapest model at(now) £42k would be very much a luxury purchase and in fact would be subject to "premium vehicle" tax every year. The best selling vehicle in the UK at the moment is still a Nissan Qashqai, a family friendly crossover, starting at £26k. A basic model 3 doesn't compare in terms of usability, Model Y does but it's £20k(another very decent car) more than the Qashqai. And finally, I imagine most Brits can't actually afford a £42k vehicle - even on decent finance that's £500-600 a month - that's how much I pay in mortgage for my house.

xnx 4y ago

Not that I expect many people are doing total cost of ownership calculation, but even with a higher upfront cost, EVs have a lot of cost benefits with much less maintenance and fuel costs. You do spend more on tires though.

canucklady 4y ago
I bought my almost-new Subaru Forester for $17000. There is no amount of maintenance and fuel savings that would make up the ~$18k difference to buy a _used_ Tesla. I could have gone even cheaper but I wanted premium features like AWD and lots of space for my business. People who talk about TCO for a car are already setting the bar crazy high to justify buying an expensive car that they don't really need.
rsj_hn 4y ago
A lot of people assert that EVs have a lower cost of ownership, but there just isn't a lot of data to support that. Yes, on the one hand you have fewer moving parts. On the other you have a huge amount of new tech and a rapacious service model. For example, Teslas are more expensive to maintain than the ICE industry average - $832 versus $650 for other cars. https://jalopnik.com/advisor/tesla-maintenance-cost/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20Tesla%20vehicles%20are%20quite,reliability%20score%20among%20all%20automakers https://jalopnik.com/advisor/tesla-maintenance-cost/#:~:text.... In terms of fuel, well that very much depends on what happens to electricity prices when a lot of people start plugging in their EVs. Again, people assume they will just remain the same in response to an increase in demand, but color me skeptical. The only way electricity prices can avoid rapidly increasing is if it becomes illegal for you to plug in your EV. You should in general be suspicious of anyone making claims about total cost of ownership calculations, and heavily discount such claims -- whether it is your local IBM/Oracle salesman or your local car salesman. It is usually a mechanism to justify higher up front purchase prices. Next time someone refuses to be price competitive with other options but makes an appeal to TCO, ask them to put that into writing -- that your TCO will be lower otherwise you will get a refund on the purchase price. Just watch their mouth drop.
- huijzer 4y ago

RobertRoberts 4y ago

Maybe that market is current saturated? And they are now trying to get lower income buyers. In most of the world (my rough guess) a Tesla costs as much or more than a house. Not an easy thing to invest in that rusts, crashes and wears out.

timeon 4y ago

> A £45k car is an expensive car for most people. I have paid for 2nd hand car about 3k. Can imagine to buy new one for 20k but as someone who does not use it daily, 45k seems crazy for a car.

Fatnino 4y ago

My car cost me $2k. It gets me everywhere that I need to be and even most places that I simply want to be. If I want to drive over the mountains or 500miles on a road trip, I just have to remember to pack a toolbox. Generally simple fixes easily done. Practically speaking, I just rent a car for a couple of days for those harder outings rather than put my elderly car through that. Anyway, your laptop cost more than my car.

7e 4y ago
I imagine their time is also worth a lot more than yours.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  I think it's also a safety thing. I am always surprised at parents who clearly have enough money when they get their kids really f'ed up cars. I even know of a family who lost their kid in a car crash, and it would've most likely been fine had they not "tried to teach him a lesson" and gotten him a reasonable car. So yeah, my main reason for driving a pricier car is, well, less chance of death and leaving behind my family.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  You're right, they deserve to be fleeced more than me.