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These estimations are pure imagination. I doubt you have `any` real data to support it. Also, that is not the reason why Typescript was created, nor the reason

These estimations are pure imagination. I doubt you have `any` real data to support it. Also, that is not the reason why Typescript was created, nor the reason why people adopt it, not even what Typescript really is. Today, almost every Node.js framework supports Typescript out of the box. I challenge you to provide a modern framework that doesn't provide types. And this is not an opinion, nor it is wishful thinking, it is a fact: type checking and strongly typed languages will take over almost every modern software development paradigm.

chucklenorris 4y ago
I work with typescript everyday. I review prs, i mentor junior devs that are learning typescript. Ofcourse this is my experience, maybe yours is different, if so please tell me about it. The only thing i said is that there is an upfront cost in velocity that people are usually not considering when they are choosing to use ts over js. Sure, that cost may be amortised in fewer bugs and easier collaboration across large development teams. But i see people struggling everyday with specifying correct and complete types. I reject prs, i babysit devs that can't figure out how to type certain code constructs. And if i don't do this the project ends up a mess of anys and ts-ignores which undermines the value proposition of typescript.
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  I think whatever tax you pay in writing typescript (which, as someone reasonably experienced with it, I believe is none or exceptionally minimal) you easily get back from improved efficiencies of not requiring memorizing the entire shape of your application, looking up in seperate documentation, or a run/inspect/write-code just to see what things are. I think that typescript's type refinement is extremley useful to know whether you've covered all the cases for the types of data as it flows through your system.
- andoryuu 4y ago
  If someone cannot reason about types when forced to, I wouldn't want to see their code _without_ typescript.
fckgnad 4y ago
Strongly typed languages already did take over the software development paradigm. It happened when Java, C++ and C were the dominant languages. Then it regressed back to dynamically typed languages as ruby, php, python and js skyrocketed into popularity. With the advent of typescript and other things like it... types are now back in vogue but for how long? The universe is a four dimensional loop. Programming, like history, like life, moves in an endless flat circle. It's all so predictable... Because This ENTIRE thread represents a precursor to the inevitable and impending oscillation back to the beginning of the circle. Types will fall out of vogue and history will repeat.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > types are now back in vogue but for how long? Probably until startups and organizations that use more flexible languages race past those who strongly type things. Just like in the early days of the web and actually for ~2 decades in which everyone who used loosely typed languages raced past those who strongly typed stuff due to the ease of use and flexibility. If typing was the way to go, already existing typed languages would rule the roost. But they didn't. The end users dont care about any engineering concerns that we have. They care whether they can do what they want with an app or service. And organizations that can ship code fast will keep their strong advantage.
- xigoi 4y ago
  > Strongly typed languages already did take over the software development paradigm. It happened when Java, C++ and C were the dominant languages. C is not a strongly typed language. Did you mean statically typed?
nonethewiser 4y ago
An estimation doesn't need data. It's a best guess. I don't think its fair to call it an imagination. As far as we know that's what he thinks based off his observations.
kraf 4y ago
I converted a few codebases from JS to TS and this takes a surprising amount of time. I won't put out estimates but it's definitely non trivial. > I challenge you to provide a modern framework that doesn't provide types Ruby on Rails
- sbergot 4y ago
  He was clearly talking about nodejs frameworks.
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peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> These estimations are pure imagination There are decades of literature on the matter. You simply have to look for it. Statically typed languages are known to lead to slower initial development times, because languages are inherently more complex and there are more concepts to grasp. usually thy also need to be compiled, which makes times even longer and setups harder. Good news is that long term they tend to be associated with easier maintenance, but it's not totally clear if it's due to static types or the team getting more accustomed to the code base and tools having more metadata to help the programmer. One thing that is unquestionable it's that statically typed languages scale better in large teams. if anything goes well, of course , if you OTOH happen to end up working in places where they use types to build gigantic taxonomies, all the advantages are gone. > Today, almost every Node.js framework supports Typescript out of the box it doesn't follow that TS is great though. It simply says that people building frameworks want to sell them to the larger audience possible. If they could support Java or C++ or Rust, they would. Many Java libraries or frameworks still support Java 8, doesn't mean Java 8 is the greatest Java out there.
- bborud 4y ago
  > Statically typed languages are known to lead to slower initial > development times I hear people saying that, but I'm not sure I buy it. Is there any research that supports that, and if so, for which languages? Also, what does "initial development" mean here? The first day, week, month, year? And unless your project is trivial, isn't it somewhat important that as much of the initial work as possible provides a solid foundation for the future of the project so it wouldn't pay off skimping on this?
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    PDF: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jajones/INF102-S18/readings/23_hanenberg.pdf https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jajones/INF102-S18/readings/23_hane... see conclusions intuitively static typing is less forgiving and forces programmers to write code in a specific form think how much time has been wasted writing Java boilerplate code.

chucklenorris 4y ago

I work with typescript everyday. I review prs, i mentor junior devs that are learning typescript. Ofcourse this is my experience, maybe yours is different, if so please tell me about it. The only thing i said is that there is an upfront cost in velocity that people are usually not considering when they are choosing to use ts over js. Sure, that cost may be amortised in fewer bugs and easier collaboration across large development teams. But i see people struggling everyday with specifying correct and complete types. I reject prs, i babysit devs that can't figure out how to type certain code constructs. And if i don't do this the project ends up a mess of anys and ts-ignores which undermines the value proposition of typescript.

madeofpalk 4y ago
I think whatever tax you pay in writing typescript (which, as someone reasonably experienced with it, I believe is none or exceptionally minimal) you easily get back from improved efficiencies of not requiring memorizing the entire shape of your application, looking up in seperate documentation, or a run/inspect/write-code just to see what things are. I think that typescript's type refinement is extremley useful to know whether you've covered all the cases for the types of data as it flows through your system.
andoryuu 4y ago
If someone cannot reason about types when forced to, I wouldn't want to see their code _without_ typescript.

fckgnad 4y ago

Strongly typed languages already did take over the software development paradigm. It happened when Java, C++ and C were the dominant languages. Then it regressed back to dynamically typed languages as ruby, php, python and js skyrocketed into popularity. With the advent of typescript and other things like it... types are now back in vogue but for how long? The universe is a four dimensional loop. Programming, like history, like life, moves in an endless flat circle. It's all so predictable... Because This ENTIRE thread represents a precursor to the inevitable and impending oscillation back to the beginning of the circle. Types will fall out of vogue and history will repeat.

unity1001 4y ago
> types are now back in vogue but for how long? Probably until startups and organizations that use more flexible languages race past those who strongly type things. Just like in the early days of the web and actually for ~2 decades in which everyone who used loosely typed languages raced past those who strongly typed stuff due to the ease of use and flexibility. If typing was the way to go, already existing typed languages would rule the roost. But they didn't. The end users dont care about any engineering concerns that we have. They care whether they can do what they want with an app or service. And organizations that can ship code fast will keep their strong advantage.
xigoi 4y ago
> Strongly typed languages already did take over the software development paradigm. It happened when Java, C++ and C were the dominant languages. C is not a strongly typed language. Did you mean statically typed?

nonethewiser 4y ago

An estimation doesn't need data. It's a best guess. I don't think its fair to call it an imagination. As far as we know that's what he thinks based off his observations.

kraf 4y ago

I converted a few codebases from JS to TS and this takes a surprising amount of time. I won't put out estimates but it's definitely non trivial. > I challenge you to provide a modern framework that doesn't provide types Ruby on Rails

sbergot 4y ago
He was clearly talking about nodejs frameworks.

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peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> These estimations are pure imagination There are decades of literature on the matter. You simply have to look for it. Statically typed languages are known to lead to slower initial development times, because languages are inherently more complex and there are more concepts to grasp. usually thy also need to be compiled, which makes times even longer and setups harder. Good news is that long term they tend to be associated with easier maintenance, but it's not totally clear if it's due to static types or the team getting more accustomed to the code base and tools having more metadata to help the programmer. One thing that is unquestionable it's that statically typed languages scale better in large teams. if anything goes well, of course , if you OTOH happen to end up working in places where they use types to build gigantic taxonomies, all the advantages are gone. > Today, almost every Node.js framework supports Typescript out of the box it doesn't follow that TS is great though. It simply says that people building frameworks want to sell them to the larger audience possible. If they could support Java or C++ or Rust, they would. Many Java libraries or frameworks still support Java 8, doesn't mean Java 8 is the greatest Java out there.

bborud 4y ago
> Statically typed languages are known to lead to slower initial > development times I hear people saying that, but I'm not sure I buy it. Is there any research that supports that, and if so, for which languages? Also, what does "initial development" mean here? The first day, week, month, year? And unless your project is trivial, isn't it somewhat important that as much of the initial work as possible provides a solid foundation for the future of the project so it wouldn't pay off skimping on this?
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  PDF: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jajones/INF102-S18/readings/23_hanenberg.pdf https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jajones/INF102-S18/readings/23_hane... see conclusions intuitively static typing is less forgiving and forces programmers to write code in a specific form think how much time has been wasted writing Java boilerplate code.