5 ms·

HVDC is now a thing. Collecting solar in Northern Austrialia and sending it to Singapore over a 3800km long transmission line. Under construction now.

bamboozled 4y ago
The project has stalled due to the two billionaires funding the project having a “spat”.
Scoundreller 4y ago
Thank you. People laughed when I suggested an HVDC link between North America and Europe. Nordstream 1 was 1222km, and Britpipe now, is 60km shorter. Boston to Lisbon is 5100km. Churchill Falls (home of a giant hydro dam project in Labrador Canada which got screwed by Hydro-Quebec because the only via transit was through Quebec), would be just under 4000km subsea. The transit contract expires in 2039 I believe...
- mschuster91 4y ago
  The current HVDC record is China, they run an almost 3300km line [1], but it's capable of only 12 GW transmission power. It really doesn't make much sense to connect Europe and North America. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...
- gregoriol 4y ago
  It wouldn't make much sense: eastern US/Canada and western Europe have about the same profile (same kind of wind/hydro/solar/... sources); it would make more sense to connect regions with different profiles, like the Scotland/England example of the article (high-wind/low-population to a high-population zone) or high-sunlight to a low-sunlight (like southern europe/northern africa to northern europe)
fmajid 4y ago
There's this incredible project to build a 10GW solar farm in Morocco (1/3 of UK peak consumption) and bring the power to the UK via HVDC cable. Amazingly they estimate only 10% losses despite being over 3800km long: https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? And then there are pumped hydropower storage project like this one with a proposed storage capacity of 200 GWh and 1.5GW of power: https://www.coireglas.com https://www.coireglas.com In the worst case, couldn't the excess power simply be used in electrolyzers to generate hydrogen? They may not be very efficient but it's better than throwing free energy away.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  The dumb thing is that electricity transmission and distribution are usually fixed. This already doesn't make sense because it's peak demand that drives the capex. Opex is peanuts. But the retail buyer doesn't usually see the negative/low electricity prices of high-supply+low-demand time periods for their "inefficient" uses that should still be economic.
  - Reason077 4y ago
    > "But the retail buyer doesn't usually see the negative/low electricity prices" There are electricity suppliers in the UK who offer prices linked to the wholesale price, including actually paying you to use electricity if the price goes negative. Quite useful for flexible loads such as EV charging! https://twitter.com/DanielColquitt/status/1395396355535867905 https://twitter.com/DanielColquitt/status/139539635553586790...
- blibble 4y ago
  > Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? why would this be necessary when the entirety of Great Britain is one synchronous grid?
  - ErikCorry 4y ago
    Strangely there already is one between Scotland and Wales and two more are proposed (see the article). I suspect NIMBYism is a big part of the explanation. Airborne AC links are efficient but ugly. Underwater AC links are tolerated by Nimbies, but inefficient. So you end up with underwater HVDC links.
throwaway2037 4y ago
"Under construction now." Wiki says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link projected to begin construction in mid-2023 And: In January 2023, Sun Cable went into administration, the equivalent of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.
- entropicgravity 4y ago
  OK sure, that particular project may have been halted but it's not because of technical problems. And plenty of HVDC transmission lines have already been built. The key thing about HVDC is that it follows a dropping price curve similar to semiconductor manufacturing so prices will continue to come down.
- defrost 4y ago
  The cable and power transmission parts of that scheme were sound - the routing across one of the more volcanic and faulted geological regions in the world was sketchy.
NamTaf 4y ago
To be clear, Sun Cable entered administration this week. I wouldn’t hold your breath. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-administration/101845100 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-admi...
- entropicgravity 4y ago
  Ok sure apparently I'm a week out of date, but several other projects are in the works and many of these have already been built. There isn't a problem with the technology.
- defrost 4y ago
  G'damn it. That's a shame, I wasn't entirely onboard with the logistics of crossing the massive fault lines along the route .. but I admired the ambition and scope of the project. Be interesting to see if this is the end or just a pause waiting for fresh capital.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    https://www.straitstimes.com/business/aussie-billionaire-urges-overhaul-of-collapsed-mega-project-to-send-solar-power-to-singapore https://www.straitstimes.com/business/aussie-billionaire-urg...
hgomersall 4y ago
The current problem, as I understand it, is the capacity to build HVDC isn't high enough to meet global demand.
- adrianN 4y ago
  That is true for almost every technology related to energy. We can't satisfy global demand for solar panels or wind turbines or batteries or other forms of storage either. We also can't satisfy demand for heat pumps or building insulation.

bamboozled 4y ago

The project has stalled due to the two billionaires funding the project having a “spat”.

Scoundreller 4y ago

Thank you. People laughed when I suggested an HVDC link between North America and Europe. Nordstream 1 was 1222km, and Britpipe now, is 60km shorter. Boston to Lisbon is 5100km. Churchill Falls (home of a giant hydro dam project in Labrador Canada which got screwed by Hydro-Quebec because the only via transit was through Quebec), would be just under 4000km subsea. The transit contract expires in 2039 I believe...

mschuster91 4y ago
The current HVDC record is China, they run an almost 3300km line [1], but it's capable of only 12 GW transmission power. It really doesn't make much sense to connect Europe and North America. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...
gregoriol 4y ago
It wouldn't make much sense: eastern US/Canada and western Europe have about the same profile (same kind of wind/hydro/solar/... sources); it would make more sense to connect regions with different profiles, like the Scotland/England example of the article (high-wind/low-population to a high-population zone) or high-sunlight to a low-sunlight (like southern europe/northern africa to northern europe)

fmajid 4y ago

There's this incredible project to build a 10GW solar farm in Morocco (1/3 of UK peak consumption) and bring the power to the UK via HVDC cable. Amazingly they estimate only 10% losses despite being over 3800km long: https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? And then there are pumped hydropower storage project like this one with a proposed storage capacity of 200 GWh and 1.5GW of power: https://www.coireglas.com https://www.coireglas.com In the worst case, couldn't the excess power simply be used in electrolyzers to generate hydrogen? They may not be very efficient but it's better than throwing free energy away.

Scoundreller 4y ago
The dumb thing is that electricity transmission and distribution are usually fixed. This already doesn't make sense because it's peak demand that drives the capex. Opex is peanuts. But the retail buyer doesn't usually see the negative/low electricity prices of high-supply+low-demand time periods for their "inefficient" uses that should still be economic.
- Reason077 4y ago
  > "But the retail buyer doesn't usually see the negative/low electricity prices" There are electricity suppliers in the UK who offer prices linked to the wholesale price, including actually paying you to use electricity if the price goes negative. Quite useful for flexible loads such as EV charging! https://twitter.com/DanielColquitt/status/1395396355535867905 https://twitter.com/DanielColquitt/status/139539635553586790...
blibble 4y ago
> Surely HVDC links between Scotland and England could be built? why would this be necessary when the entirety of Great Britain is one synchronous grid?
- ErikCorry 4y ago
  Strangely there already is one between Scotland and Wales and two more are proposed (see the article). I suspect NIMBYism is a big part of the explanation. Airborne AC links are efficient but ugly. Underwater AC links are tolerated by Nimbies, but inefficient. So you end up with underwater HVDC links.

throwaway2037 4y ago

"Under construction now." Wiki says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link projected to begin construction in mid-2023 And: In January 2023, Sun Cable went into administration, the equivalent of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.

entropicgravity 4y ago
OK sure, that particular project may have been halted but it's not because of technical problems. And plenty of HVDC transmission lines have already been built. The key thing about HVDC is that it follows a dropping price curve similar to semiconductor manufacturing so prices will continue to come down.
defrost 4y ago
The cable and power transmission parts of that scheme were sound - the routing across one of the more volcanic and faulted geological regions in the world was sketchy.

NamTaf 4y ago

To be clear, Sun Cable entered administration this week. I wouldn’t hold your breath. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-administration/101845100 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-admi...

entropicgravity 4y ago
Ok sure apparently I'm a week out of date, but several other projects are in the works and many of these have already been built. There isn't a problem with the technology.
defrost 4y ago
G'damn it. That's a shame, I wasn't entirely onboard with the logistics of crossing the massive fault lines along the route .. but I admired the ambition and scope of the project. Be interesting to see if this is the end or just a pause waiting for fresh capital.
- jhugo 4y ago
  https://www.straitstimes.com/business/aussie-billionaire-urges-overhaul-of-collapsed-mega-project-to-send-solar-power-to-singapore https://www.straitstimes.com/business/aussie-billionaire-urg...

hgomersall 4y ago

The current problem, as I understand it, is the capacity to build HVDC isn't high enough to meet global demand.

adrianN 4y ago
That is true for almost every technology related to energy. We can't satisfy global demand for solar panels or wind turbines or batteries or other forms of storage either. We also can't satisfy demand for heat pumps or building insulation.