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It feels like the skeptics, who were pointing out last year that the rates on crypto yield products, were too good to be true, had a point. That's Celsius, Voy

It feels like the skeptics, who were pointing out last year that the rates on crypto yield products, were too good to be true, had a point. That's Celsius, Voyager, Blockfi, Genesis and now nexo all in some level of financial/legal trouble. The question is how much is still to be uncovered.

louwrentius 4y ago
All of them are liars by definition. We know they are all insolvent. Crypto doesn’t create any value, like with an investment in a regular business. So that must mean any profit is just money from the latest “unfortunates” that were foolish or desperate enough to buy in.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Crypto doesn’t create any value, like with an investment in a regular business. Generally, I agree that a lot of "cryptocoin" usages are basically fraudulent and scams. Some of them are nothing more than "bragging rights" aka "look at me, I'm rich enough to waste 100 bucks on an NFT by the 45th" or that time when Twitter allowed one to display an NFT as a profile picture. There is one legitimate usage for cryptocurrencies however: anonymity. The amount of traceability that banks, secret services and police have into our lives simply by mapping our transaction activity is insane. Unfortunately, Bitcoin has way too much of an energy consumption and too high latency for mainstream usage outside of drug deliveries via dark web marketplaces, and the alternatives are way too volatile even compared to Bitcoin.
  - louwrentius 4y ago
    Anonimity is a fantasy that makes no sense if you think for a few seconds about it. There is always another person, a company or bank at the other end. The key issue isn’t anonimity but policy and politics. No technology can be above any law by definition.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      Sure, but a currency (or, rather, a transaction system) that is difficult-ish to trace has a value on its own.
jrsj 4y ago
Bitcoiners were also generally skeptical of this. BTC and crypto often gets lumped together but many of those who prefer Bitcoin have been skeptical about stuff like this from the beginning. Lightning Network also has some interesting capabilities & seems like it might actually evolve into something with real utility. Block is investing pretty significantly into that. The minority of Bitcoin enthusiasts in the crypto space might turn out to be at least somewhat right. Assuming western governments don’t ban proof of work, at least.
- 0xAFFFF 4y ago
  Bitcoin has failed as electronic cash (its intended purpose). Bitcoin has failed as a store of value. Bitcoin has failed as inflation hedge. The project is 13 years old at this point and has failed to provide any meaningful use, has failed in terms of mainstream appeal and isn't nowhere near revolutionary. All of this while being an environmental disaster, burning through electricity and producing e-waste like there's no ecological emergency. That farce needs to stop and the sooner the better.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ls15 4y ago
    If you want to dispose of your failed BTC, I will happily provide an address.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
and yet Bitcoin is up 10% so far this year
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not But it’s incredibly fascinating to see how much the Bitcoin fans can ignore all of the fraud and the collapse of crypto markets, instead focusing on hypothetically perfect retroactive market timing. So much of the Bitcoin propaganda is different versions of “Well if you had bought Bitcoin on <specific date in the past> then you’d be up right now!”
  - jrsj 4y ago
    “Bitcoin fans” != “crypto fans”. Much higher % of Bitcoin fans were skeptical of yield products from the beginning, prefer to hold their own coins, and are generally distrustful of the crypto market in general. It’s far from a monolithic group of people. But yes that last part is right, people are always saying stuff like that and it’s a terrible argument if you can even call it that.
    - warinukraine 4y ago
      > skeptical of yield products Yield products aren't the problem, they're a symptom. The problem is wanting to buy something that has no value and hoping to sell it to someone else who in turn is also hoping to sell it to someone else even higher. Bitcoin, NFT, yield products, etc, they're all manifestations of the same thing.
      - jrsj 4y ago
        You just described basically the entirety of finance
        warinukraine 4y ago
        You just showed you don't know anything about finance.
TwoFactor 4y ago
The irony is also that a lot of the interest rates that were too good to be true last year are much more reasonable in the current environment.

louwrentius 4y ago

All of them are liars by definition. We know they are all insolvent. Crypto doesn’t create any value, like with an investment in a regular business. So that must mean any profit is just money from the latest “unfortunates” that were foolish or desperate enough to buy in.

mschuster91 4y ago
> Crypto doesn’t create any value, like with an investment in a regular business. Generally, I agree that a lot of "cryptocoin" usages are basically fraudulent and scams. Some of them are nothing more than "bragging rights" aka "look at me, I'm rich enough to waste 100 bucks on an NFT by the 45th" or that time when Twitter allowed one to display an NFT as a profile picture. There is one legitimate usage for cryptocurrencies however: anonymity. The amount of traceability that banks, secret services and police have into our lives simply by mapping our transaction activity is insane. Unfortunately, Bitcoin has way too much of an energy consumption and too high latency for mainstream usage outside of drug deliveries via dark web marketplaces, and the alternatives are way too volatile even compared to Bitcoin.
- louwrentius 4y ago
  Anonimity is a fantasy that makes no sense if you think for a few seconds about it. There is always another person, a company or bank at the other end. The key issue isn’t anonimity but policy and politics. No technology can be above any law by definition.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    Sure, but a currency (or, rather, a transaction system) that is difficult-ish to trace has a value on its own.

jrsj 4y ago

Bitcoiners were also generally skeptical of this. BTC and crypto often gets lumped together but many of those who prefer Bitcoin have been skeptical about stuff like this from the beginning. Lightning Network also has some interesting capabilities & seems like it might actually evolve into something with real utility. Block is investing pretty significantly into that. The minority of Bitcoin enthusiasts in the crypto space might turn out to be at least somewhat right. Assuming western governments don’t ban proof of work, at least.

0xAFFFF 4y ago
Bitcoin has failed as electronic cash (its intended purpose). Bitcoin has failed as a store of value. Bitcoin has failed as inflation hedge. The project is 13 years old at this point and has failed to provide any meaningful use, has failed in terms of mainstream appeal and isn't nowhere near revolutionary. All of this while being an environmental disaster, burning through electricity and producing e-waste like there's no ecological emergency. That farce needs to stop and the sooner the better.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ls15 4y ago
  If you want to dispose of your failed BTC, I will happily provide an address.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

and yet Bitcoin is up 10% so far this year

PragmaticPulp 4y ago
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not But it’s incredibly fascinating to see how much the Bitcoin fans can ignore all of the fraud and the collapse of crypto markets, instead focusing on hypothetically perfect retroactive market timing. So much of the Bitcoin propaganda is different versions of “Well if you had bought Bitcoin on <specific date in the past> then you’d be up right now!”
- jrsj 4y ago
  “Bitcoin fans” != “crypto fans”. Much higher % of Bitcoin fans were skeptical of yield products from the beginning, prefer to hold their own coins, and are generally distrustful of the crypto market in general. It’s far from a monolithic group of people. But yes that last part is right, people are always saying stuff like that and it’s a terrible argument if you can even call it that.
  - warinukraine 4y ago
    > skeptical of yield products Yield products aren't the problem, they're a symptom. The problem is wanting to buy something that has no value and hoping to sell it to someone else who in turn is also hoping to sell it to someone else even higher. Bitcoin, NFT, yield products, etc, they're all manifestations of the same thing.
    - jrsj 4y ago
      You just described basically the entirety of finance
      - warinukraine 4y ago
        You just showed you don't know anything about finance.

TwoFactor 4y ago

The irony is also that a lot of the interest rates that were too good to be true last year are much more reasonable in the current environment.