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Roomba testers feel misled after intimate images ended up on Facebook
- WantonQuantum 4y agoI doubt they got consent from everybody in the house - so that's not actually consent. This whole thing is disgusting.
- redeeman 4y agoif only we had something called "the law" that would have something to say about embedding spyware into consumer products that puts photos of people on the toilet onto facebook. of course these kinds of things dont work for the regular guy
- ilyt 4y agoPretty sure they'd be destroyed if they did that shit in EU
- PaulKeeble 4y agoYou would think so but alas the law isn't actually enforced in many places. It takes a long time for anything to get done as most of the regulators are woefully underfunded. Having the law written is one thing but without the funding to enforce it the law is worthless to most people.
- themitigating 4y agoSo argue for more laws, more enforcement, and more funding for government agencies and watch the same people complaining about this "travesty" turn against you
- ls15 4y agoAfter a decade of collecting data, probably
- john_the_writer 4y agoThe person on the toilet?
- moolcool 4y agoI love the old "Laws like that are why the EU is less innovative than the US" response to critiques like that, given that the past decade or so of innovation feels like it's mostly been finding ways to leverage the previous decade's technology against the user.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago>"if only we had something called "the law" I'm not trying to be flippant, but what is to stop some company from simply utilizing a Terms of Service that allows them to do whatever they want with the data? I often see people chiming in that consumers "agreed" to all of this, even though the vast majority of people never read through the ToS or privacy policy at all.
- EMIRELADERO 4y agoJust write the laws so that they override a contract, pretty simple.
- Chris2048 4y agoToS are often disregarded in courts.
- wkat4242 4y agoToS can't override statutory rights. ToS are often made to be hard to understand.
- orra 4y agoCan't believe you've been downvoted. HN isn't homogonous, but too often has apologists for immoral and illegal behaviour, provided it's done by a technology company.
- stuaxo 4y ago[flagged]
- themitigating 4y ago[flagged]
- nebalee 4y agoI don't think that's right. I feel people here are not generally anti-tech, but ask for tech that benefits users instead of exploiting them.
- astura 4y agoPeople on HN have a pretty bizzare definition of "exploiting users," IMO.
- fsflover 4y agoCould you elaborate?
- omniglottal 4y agoNot op, but in a capitalistic economy where transactions tend to be using legal tender, companies providing things for "free" where the (hidden) cost is submission to Big Brother... well, that's exploitative at the least, dystopic in reality. Your unawareness of this being a BIG issue to those who cannot even choose to pay money for a product which is only "sold" for the price of your privacy... is pretty obviously a result of exploitative marketting and a control of tge dialogue which supercedes any source without a narketting/PR department. Especially while we're now "sold" ephemeral licenses instead of permanent products, and most of these products are bits which cost <$0.001 to reproduce, yet cost more today than a hard-copy did in the past, and the lion's share of profit goes to investors, management, CEOs, and other people who not only cannot produce product, but actively handicap and reduce functionality of products to squeeze ever more profit from the now-choiceless consumers. Does that clarify what has been achingly obvious to many of us who see this writing on the wall?
- amelius 4y agoBut of course, now the person who gave consent is liable ...
- jgalt212 4y agoI'd go one further. Consent is an intellectually lazy framework. For many things that operate under consent, it should be pretty clear whether or not it's OK to do something.
- JKCalhoun 4y agoI agree. If you have to ask for consent, it probably means you've already made a bad engineering/business decision. Engineers should ask before adding a feature, "Is this going to require user consent?" They could have added AI to the Roomba to remove people from the video before it ever even hits the network — or drop that video completely. Or switch to a technology other than visible light, etc.
- john_the_writer 4y agoNah.. if we ask that "is this going to require consent." the best we'll get is. "Thats a product concern that I'm sure they've addressed" Happened to me last week actually :)
- taoufix 4y agoThe only way I see around this is if they upgrade the beta-tester status and give him full control of the images and he's the only one making the labelling and uploading of the results.
- mensetmanusman 4y agoThis is like a ring camera, or an iphone recording, alexa, etc.
- ccn0p 4y agouh except that its purpose is to vacuum the floor.
- mensetmanusman 4y agoSure, I’m talking about the consent though. People are constantly recorded without explicit consent.
- cudgy 4y agoRecordings without audio in public spaces is generally allowed. In some states (single consent), audio is ok too.
- tinus_hn 4y agoBut I don’t doubt the consent form told the user to get the consent of everyone in the house. But hey, mister sour grapes from the article now ‘doesn’t think he consented’ but doesn’t want to show the consent form. If this ever goes to court I don’t doubt this will turn out to be one giant nothingburger.
- subpixel 4y agoI’m not a Luddite but I feel something like schadenfreude watching people give profit-driven companies access to their private lives for solved problems like “cleaning the floor” and “tuning the radio”.
- mrweasel 4y agoWell, a robot vacuum cleaner is a great idea. What I don't understand is why the profit is tied to data collection. Shouldn't there be a profit in simply selling vacuum cleaner? In this case iRobot didn't exactly lie about collecting data, but how greedy/stupid do you have to be as a company to not ensure that the data collect NEVER EVER leave the servers of your AI/QA/Process-improvement lab? The company know that people are already critical of their data collection, that should have trigged the creation of a process that would ensure that once data has been collected will never leave the department that develops their AI. You know this data is sensitive, and yet you outsource handling of if it, to poorly trained freelancers, who knows nothing of data security, privacy laws or apparently common decency.
- stuaxo 4y agoIt's just too tempting - the only way to solve this is to not collect the data at all.
- whatsthatabout 4y agoI love the idea of robot vacuums. In fact I own one. In my opinion one of the most useful "smart home" device currently made. Too bad the good ones are all tied to some shitty cloud (whilst they could work locally 100%). Fortunately projects like https://valetudo.cloud https://valetudo.cloud exist...
- Adraghast 4y agoMy Eufy one has no ability to connect to the internet but does a pretty good job of cleaning my floors.
- qwerty456127 4y agoWe need smart vacuum robots which can (at least optionally) be fully functional without connectong to the Internet.
- RedlineTriad 4y agoValetudo[0] exists, however it requires flashing firmware, and partial disassembly depending on the model. However, the methods to gain root are sometimes patched so new exploits are necessary. [0]: https://valetudo.cloud/ https://valetudo.cloud/
- dyingkneepad 4y agoThat's the worst project naming ever. Will my vacuum get on steroids and coke and then take me down and proceed to headbutt me until my corner throws the towel? Because that's what Vale Tudo as a project name makes me imagine. Or perhaps "anything goes" means that the robot can do anything it wants, like taking pictures and uploading it to facebook :)
- mjochim 4y agoIs that Portuguese? Valetudo is also Latin for health.
- version_five 4y agoI have a non-robotic, modern battery vacuum. It has some extra features you can activate by connecting to an app. The one I remember is that it can estimate the quantity of dirt you vacuumed which sounds interesting, though obviously not vital to vacuuming. Unfortunately, I would never consider connecting the app for fear of what info it might be phoning home with (even if it's just my vacuuming habits). It's too bad that "connected" is basically synonymous with stealing personal information. There are lots of cool non-spying things internet connected stuff can do, but companies have ruined it by using them mainly for bad.
- nobodyandproud 4y agoNeato used to make them; then around the time Vorwerk purchased they’ve only sold cloud only versions. I own both types and I found the cloud version to be less reliable and less convenient.
- JoeAltmaier 4y agoIf intimate images can be taken without consent, then they will end up public. It's human nature at some level. Not victim blaming; but this will not end unless those complicit can be identified and some inevitable punishment is created. Without that negative feedback then the positive thrill is too great for many humans to resist.
- petodo 4y agoAlready submitted here in December with big discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34057699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34057699
- q_p 4y agoThe article shared here is a follow up, dealing with responses from affected participants of the tests.
- mysterydip 4y agoWhy does the camera need to look that high up? I see example pictures of tops of cabinets and shelves. Why does a vacuum cleaner need to see that?
- brianwawok 4y agoIt is building a map, and knowing when you place it in a random room what room it is (even if you like, buy a new rug). I don't think you can just stare straight down and build a good 3d map of a building?
- chucksta 4y agoWhy does it need to know anything in the Z dimension higher than 6"?
- onpensionsterm 4y agoSo it can know where it is in that 6" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_localization_and_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_localization_and_...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sp332 4y agoBecause things came look very same-y at that height. Looking higher helps to disambiguate.
- kjkjadksj 4y agoWhy do you need to know what things are? You are a vacuum cleaner. You just need to see that you aren’t on the edge of a step (achieved with foor facing sensors for a xiaomi vacuum) and that you don’t have an obstruction ahead of you (detected by the onboard lidar and confirmed with a pressure plate on the xiaomi).
- boplicity 4y agoThere's no privacy, in terms of sensors that send data to other people. Well, correction: There can be privacy between you and those other people. Who wants a camera, roaming their house, constantly sending photos to another person? Quite a few people, apparently! Most people rationalize this, because they don't think about the other people at all. They're not visible, so they don't exist. This isn't the "panopticon" because we don't see our watchers ever appear, even when those watchers are posting our intimate photos on social media. So many "smart" devices needlessly send data to the companies that produce the product. Society has built the technology to keep data on the devices, yet that's not how things have worked out. Another point: a huge percentage of these devices are produced by Chinese companies. The Chinese government effectively has an ownership stake in all of these companies. However, we too, can rationalize this, because it's so abstract. The consequences aren't visible to us right now, so we can go ahead and ignore them. Right? Amazon is buying Roomba. Same thing. We can ignore the consequences. It's easy!
- Overtonwindow 4y agoWhen I saw the Roombas with the cameras on them, I said no, I bought the cheaper one without the camera. Something just feels strange about a camera wandering around my house.
- dyingkneepad 4y agoI have one with a camera but I never gave it my Wifi password, I never installed the app on my phone. I just press the "clean" button sometimes. But it's barely used these days, as the real vacuum is 1000% more effective in my carpet.
- altacc 4y agoMy reluctance in having an internet connected camera in my house 24/7 is why I bought a LIDAR vacuum. For similar reasons I had the security cameras removed from the house when I bought it. I've worked in IT long enough to know not to trust either the code or humans involved.
- hammock 4y agoInviting indoor-facing cameras is a disaster waiting to happen. There is a reason why Zuckerberg tapes over his laptop and why the Pelosi family only have exterior security cameras
- fnordpiglet 4y agoI’d rather hear what zuck is saying than watch him pick his nose. Bet he doesn’t tape his microphone, and even if he did it wouldn’t help.
- hammock 4y agoHe does tape his microphone, even though it doesn’t help Source: https://www.hackread.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Mark-Zuckerberg-Tape-Facebook-Instagram-1-796x398.jpg https://www.hackread.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Mark-Zuc...
- kjkjadksj 4y agoNeither does taping the webcam because the mac has that thing wired in serial to the led. I wonder what other security measures he accepts without thinking critically about them?
- LarryMullins 4y ago> mac has that thing wired in serial to the led. That doesn't stop the camera from working, it only notifies you. And it only notifies you if you're paying attention to your computer. So yes, taping your webcam does work.
- whywhywhywhy 4y agoExactly why I bought a Neato Botvac that uses just lidar to find its way around rather than a webcam pointing upwards. Easily one of my fave purchases of the past 10 years, would replace in a heartbeat if it broke.
- cube2222 4y agoIt's worth noting here (to those who are writing about unauthorized uploading of images) that those were testers. The Roomba they got was there explicitly to gather images to be used for development purposes. It's obviously still not OK that those images leaked publicly, but it's not like it was spying on them without their consent. Having bought the Roomba J(+) recently, the contribution of images for testing purposes is opt-in so done properly in that sense. The camera is also completely covered when the Roomba is docked, while the advantage of recognizing obstacles and properly driving around them is great. My previous Roomba was completely useless because it would get stuck on cables, shoes, anything. All this to say it's not that black-and-white to me. I still don't do explicit stuff in front of the Roomba, but it doesn't mean I can't use it in a controlled way.
- dboreham 4y ago> but it's not like it was spying on them without their consent Actually that's exactly what they did because the "their" here encompasses all humans in the building. Unless there was a requirement to post prominent notices "you will be subject to filming if you enter this facility" around the place, then no there wasn't consent.
- cube2222 4y agoDon't you think that's on the testers who agreed to test that Roomba and set it up in their building?
- robin_reala 4y agoNot really. At least in the EU “consent” on its own doesn’t exist, the concept is “informed consent”. So Roomba, if relying on consent, should have informed the user of the need to get informed consent from every non-child family member and visitor that might come into contact with that Roomba and to transmit that informed consent to Roomba. (Children’s consent can be given by their guardians.)
- gspencley 4y agoIt's black and white to me in the sense that I don't like the idea of something that I buy to clean my carpets having a NIC inside of it. Even if I don't opt-in to enabling certain features, I'm not comfortable paying for the hardware and having a device in my home that is even capable of sending data about my private living space to some remote server. It reminds me of that time a bought a dust collector called a "Playstation 4" and it required me to connect it to the Internet before I could use it. I almost returned it for that very reason. Not everything needs to be connected to a network.
- kypro 4y agoAt what point does a Roomba need to identify and report potentially problematic household items to the authorities? I honestly couldn't imagine letting something like this roam around my house collecting a database of everything that's in it. This level of object recognition seems completely inappropriate for a vacuum.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y agoThe "authorities" can't even stop scam telephone calls. It's not up to the authorities. The consumers need to smarten up with their smart devices.
- ccn0p 4y agowhat's this white powder residue i've found?
- js2 4y agoDiscussion from last month on the related article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34057699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34057699
- gspencley 4y agoWhy the hell do I need my VACUUM to have a camera and an internet connection?! cameras for object detection, fine ... but there are VERY few things in my home that I need or want to be connected to a network, and my vacuum cleaner is not one of them. And why do I even need this thing to persist images in any capacity (even locally, let alone remotely)? Despite being a software engineer for 25 years I'm starting to become a luddite because of things like this. One of these days I might just pack up everything and go live off grid.
- kjkjadksj 4y agoMy xiaomi uses wifi to communicate to the app on your phone and its dock. The app is useful, you can specify a zone to clean from a previous lidar scan of your place, have it come and do a spot cleanup, establish schedules or trigger a clean while you are away, or you can control it manually with directional controls. That being said I think it would still work fine without the wifi doing a whole area clean with the button on the top, it just might say its having trouble finding its dock and you would need to carry it home after its finished.
- LarryMullins 4y ago> trigger a clean while you are away Perfect for those occasions when I'm away on vacation but the dirt on my kitchen floor back home is bothering me... Honestly half these features only exist because they're easy to implement and make the feature list longer, not because they're actually useful. And the other half don't require the internet, I set schedules on my roomba that has no radio in it, it has four buttons and a seven segment display.
- spixy 4y agoit is nice when you are at work, nobody is at home, so you trigger it
- kjkjadksj 4y agoI have a cat and its pretty much a guarentee I need to have the vacuum run every few days. Its still useful to check in with it. Sometimes the vacuum gets stuck. Sometimes something blocks it and prevents it from cleaning a room, and I can tell that because I have a map of the lidar scan with a path drawn of the vacuum route on it in the app.
- jrm4 4y agoWhat a ridiculously soft headline. "Feel misled?" No, I would e.g. feel misled if I showed up to the burger spot and found that the cheeseburger special doesn't apply to bacon cheeseburgers. This is .. something different from that.
- bigbacaloa 4y agoIt seems the tech world has normalized practice that most consider completely unethical.
- vosper 4y agoI bought a Roborock S7 because of this issue. I wanted a capable vacuum with no camera. It's my first robot vacuum, so I don't have any points of comparison, but it's been excellent. It's mapped the rooms really well and leaves perfect lines on the carpet - no ranom navigation or ping-ponging. We pick things up before we run the robot, but that's fine because it means the house is tidier. I don't have a pet so I don't know how good it is at avoiding poop on the floor (apparently a selling point of vacuums with cameras) but poop on the floor is not something I would accept in my house anyway.
- cudgy 4y agoNew slogan and company name: “eyeRobot - we clean your floor and keep an eye on your stuff!” These types of leaks of information only damage the reputation of smart product makers even further. There really needs to be a push towards local processing on the smart devices. Most of them call home for nefarious reasons either to gain or gather marketing information or to outright spying on their customers.
- nitwit005 4y agoPutting the photo of the woman on a toilet in the article seems a bit dubious even with the face obscured, particularly given that this is an article about lack of consent.
- bleah1000 4y agoThe problem is with all of these new devices using AI related features. They all seem to decide that it's a good idea to use contractors to "verify" or "categorize" the pictures. There is always a leak because they have to rely on the contractor's security protocols to make sure that these pictures don't get out. And, surprisingly, contractors might not have the best security, and it doesn't seem like the companies have any incentive to verify the security.