6 ms·

And countries which relies on renewables have pretty cheap electricity(Nordics).

by antupis 4y ago

doikor 4y ago
Nordic’s also have a lot of nuclear (well Sweden and Finland does)
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  ...which is under constant pressure from "green" parties to be closed down in Sweden. The current government makes different noises and may in fact allow more nuclear power plants to be established but nearly all "progressive" governments in the last decades have worked to reduce reliance on nuclear power. Half of the available nuclear capacity has been closed down for political reasons - "green" politicians claim it was the market which decided to close down these plants but their claims are false [1]. Some of the recently closed down plants could possibly be restarted but this remains to be seen. Given the current "energy crisis" in Europe - which has driven up electricity prices in Sweden 5- to 10-fold for end users and with that is driving many companies into bankruptcy even though the actual cost for ~75% of power producers - hydro and remaining nuclear capacity - in Sweden has not changed. The profits from these price hikes mostly (~65%) flow to the state [2] through increased taxation, the so-called "flaskhalsavgift" (bottle neck surcharge) on electricity produced in the north but used in the south or abroad and the increased VAT income due to the higher prices. [1] https://naringslivets-medieinstitut.se/det-var-marknaden-som-stangde-karnkraften/ https://naringslivets-medieinstitut.se/det-var-marknaden-som... [2] https://www.dagensps.se/privatekonomi/bostad/analys-staten-stor-vinnare-pa-hoga-elpriser/ https://www.dagensps.se/privatekonomi/bostad/analys-staten-s...
fredrikholm 4y ago
Both Norway and Sweden has had some 5-10X price hikes in 2022 and 2023. I used to pay the equivalent of 15 cents, now that same amount of electricity is 1-4 dollars.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  That might be because companies can sell the electricity abroad for a higher price? If electricity in Denmark/Germany/Finland (made up example) is super high then why sell it domestically at the low rate??
  - fredrikholm 4y ago
    Deconstruction of nuclear power plants. Wind turbines are built in the north for both countries, where the vast majority of the population live in the south. This means that power has to be moved for distances that span the equivalent of several countries (Norway and Sweden are very long). South used to provide some ~30% of base power by nuclear, but due to political and economical[0] pressure they've been neglected and subsequently removed. [0] Sweden had nuclear specific taxation for several decades, constantly increasing until the point where a lot of power plants were unable to finance themselves. Recently, the tax was dropped. The narrative now is that "the market has spoken" about their lack of profitability, neglecting three decades of economical and political/PR warfare against them.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      So charging roughly $1.2 billion over a plant's lifetime, or a small fraction of the underfunded cleanup bill traditionally left behind in other countries. That's definitely the reason OL3 is a boondogle. Not the other $8 billion of graft.
      - fredrikholm 4y ago
        Where's that number from? "Effektskatten" peaked at 7 öre per produced kw/h. That's a ~40-50% tax exclusively for, and on top of existing taxes when prices were a fraction of what they are now. I don't know about Finland/OL3.
        Schroedingersat 4y ago
        > Effektskatten" peaked at 7 öre per produced kw/h. That's a ~40-50% tax exclusively for, and on top of existing taxes when prices were a fraction of what they are now. And if you sum up every cent they ever paid per GW including the capacity charge, you get roughly $1-2bn per reactor or a bit less than the bill that the taxpayer gets left with after decomissioning and waste management is underfunded. It's also significantly less than insurance would cost without the Vienna convention and Paris convention.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

And countries which relies on renewables have pretty cheap electricity(Nordics).

doikor 4y ago

Nordic’s also have a lot of nuclear (well Sweden and Finland does)

the_third_wave 4y ago
...which is under constant pressure from "green" parties to be closed down in Sweden. The current government makes different noises and may in fact allow more nuclear power plants to be established but nearly all "progressive" governments in the last decades have worked to reduce reliance on nuclear power. Half of the available nuclear capacity has been closed down for political reasons - "green" politicians claim it was the market which decided to close down these plants but their claims are false [1]. Some of the recently closed down plants could possibly be restarted but this remains to be seen. Given the current "energy crisis" in Europe - which has driven up electricity prices in Sweden 5- to 10-fold for end users and with that is driving many companies into bankruptcy even though the actual cost for ~75% of power producers - hydro and remaining nuclear capacity - in Sweden has not changed. The profits from these price hikes mostly (~65%) flow to the state [2] through increased taxation, the so-called "flaskhalsavgift" (bottle neck surcharge) on electricity produced in the north but used in the south or abroad and the increased VAT income due to the higher prices. [1] https://naringslivets-medieinstitut.se/det-var-marknaden-som-stangde-karnkraften/ https://naringslivets-medieinstitut.se/det-var-marknaden-som... [2] https://www.dagensps.se/privatekonomi/bostad/analys-staten-stor-vinnare-pa-hoga-elpriser/ https://www.dagensps.se/privatekonomi/bostad/analys-staten-s...

fredrikholm 4y ago

Both Norway and Sweden has had some 5-10X price hikes in 2022 and 2023. I used to pay the equivalent of 15 cents, now that same amount of electricity is 1-4 dollars.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
That might be because companies can sell the electricity abroad for a higher price? If electricity in Denmark/Germany/Finland (made up example) is super high then why sell it domestically at the low rate??
- fredrikholm 4y ago
  Deconstruction of nuclear power plants. Wind turbines are built in the north for both countries, where the vast majority of the population live in the south. This means that power has to be moved for distances that span the equivalent of several countries (Norway and Sweden are very long). South used to provide some ~30% of base power by nuclear, but due to political and economical[0] pressure they've been neglected and subsequently removed. [0] Sweden had nuclear specific taxation for several decades, constantly increasing until the point where a lot of power plants were unable to finance themselves. Recently, the tax was dropped. The narrative now is that "the market has spoken" about their lack of profitability, neglecting three decades of economical and political/PR warfare against them.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    So charging roughly $1.2 billion over a plant's lifetime, or a small fraction of the underfunded cleanup bill traditionally left behind in other countries. That's definitely the reason OL3 is a boondogle. Not the other $8 billion of graft.
    - fredrikholm 4y ago
      Where's that number from? "Effektskatten" peaked at 7 öre per produced kw/h. That's a ~40-50% tax exclusively for, and on top of existing taxes when prices were a fraction of what they are now. I don't know about Finland/OL3.
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        > Effektskatten" peaked at 7 öre per produced kw/h. That's a ~40-50% tax exclusively for, and on top of existing taxes when prices were a fraction of what they are now. And if you sum up every cent they ever paid per GW including the capacity charge, you get roughly $1-2bn per reactor or a bit less than the bill that the taxpayer gets left with after decomissioning and waste management is underfunded. It's also significantly less than insurance would cost without the Vienna convention and Paris convention.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]