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What about the stocks that make up the S&P500/the ETFs/mutual funds that track it? I know it isn't on the scale of "crypto scam" but a lot of people think along

What about the stocks that make up the S&P500/the ETFs/mutual funds that track it? I know it isn't on the scale of "crypto scam" but a lot of people think along the lines of: can you trust the U.S. government to do the right thing/be efficient/effective? not really therefore, lots of debt that'll never get paid back corporations barely turning a profit. https://finviz.com/screener.ashx?v=111&f=idx_sp500&o=-pe https://finviz.com/screener.ashx?v=111&f=idx_sp500&o=-pe ton of stocks with high P/E or no earnings in the S&P wall street/robinhood "manipulating" markets, basically designing it almost like a casino to extract money from those who get addicted to "trading" stock market is where wall street + U.S. corporations (greedy CEOs/boards) + government/politics (regulation, interest rates, etc.) all meet and it's less fraudulent than crypto? i'm not saying this is what i think. i read a lot of this (pretty much MAGA crazed conspiracy theorist weirdos) on stocktwits. a non zero amount of people think this.

bhelkey 4y ago
> corporations barely turning a profit...ton of stocks with high P/E or no earnings in the S&P In the first 20 companies you compare to scams is Amazon, a company with $500 Billion dollars in sales last year [1]. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/revenue https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/revenu...
jakelazaroff 4y ago
Okay? A non zero amount of people think the Earth is flat. That doesn’t mean we need to take them seriously.
- canadianfella 4y ago
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DonHopkins 4y ago
Maybe you should be more discerning about what MAGA crazed conspiracy theorist weirdos you read, and what MAGA crazed conspiracy theories you spread.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  I wouldn't say I'm aiming to spread them. I'm asking a bunch of people more educated than I (HackerNews readers) if there is any truth/concern to any of it. You can find 10 posts in the past 30 days where people here are saying "omg, greedy corporation does greedy thing". Just the other day we had a post saying "maybe the U.S. economy won't continue to grow forever and the stock market won't continue to return 7% a year" Asked ChatGPT > Is Wall Street known to be trustworthy and moral? > Over the years there have been many instances of scandals, manipulation and fraud on Wall Street, which has damaged the reputation of the street. Asked it this as well > Are there instances of the U.S. government hiding the truth/lying to its citizens/being inefficient with taxpayer money? > There have been instances in history where the U.S. government has been accused of hiding the truth, lying to its citizens, or being inefficient with taxpayer money. I'm just trying to have a conversation. These MAGA people get a ton of power when you shut them down because they can point and say "see! listen! they don't want our points to be voiced! that means we're onto something"
  - danaris 4y ago
    ChatGPT's answers on questions like this aren't going to be usefully correct: they're merely going to repeat at best a synthesis/summary of what people have said on the topic in extant writings. But this is a question about trust and morals, which cannot be decided merely by consensus; any meaningful answer to it must be rooted in an actual value system and an understanding of trust.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      > ChatGPT's answers on questions like this aren't going to be usefully correct: they're merely going to repeat at best a synthesis/summary of what people have said It might repeat what some people have said. ChatGPT isn't designed to determine a consensus or to use a representative sample.
      - danaris 4y ago
        Fair. My point was largely that it doesn't "know" or "understand" anything itself, in order to draw conclusions; it merely has a whole lot of text in it and a model that allows it to associate that text very convincingly to look like it knows stuff. Thus, any answer it gives on a question like this will not be based on a comprehensive analysis of data, but rather on what the model predicts people would most likely say about the subject.
lkrubner 4y ago
>> therefore, lots of debt that'll never get paid back The last time the national government of an English speaking nation defaulted on its debt was on January 2 of 1672, with the Stop Of The Exchequer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_of_the_Exchequer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_of_the_Exchequer We've now seen 351 years of debts being paid on time, so why would you think the government is suddenly not going to pay its debt? You'd need a strong thesis to explain why the 351 year old trend is coming to an end.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  Never said I don't think we'll pay our debt. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S How will that not limit us going forward / is the current rate of "just add it to debt/never pay it back" sustainable?
  - chii 4y ago
    If people are willing to lend to the gov't (by purchasing bonds), then why is it not sustainable? Those who are doing the lending is effectively proclaiming that they don't foresee a stoppage of future lending.
    - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
      just because we can doesn't mean we should? Type "At what level does debt-to-GDP ratio hinder a nation?" into ChatGPT I'm not talking about collapse, I'm talking about hinderance going forward Raising debt, gotta service it, gotta raise taxes to pay for it or cut costs, no? https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/24/facts-about-the-national-debt/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/24/facts-about...
      - danaris 4y ago
        ChatGPT would only have a cogent answer to that if there were a well-accepted cogent answer in the extant literature. To the best of my understanding, any answers to that question in extant literature are either going to be highly theoretical, or about situations that are not sufficiently similar to that of the modern US to be helpful.

bhelkey 4y ago

> corporations barely turning a profit...ton of stocks with high P/E or no earnings in the S&P In the first 20 companies you compare to scams is Amazon, a company with $500 Billion dollars in sales last year [1]. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/revenue https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/revenu...

jakelazaroff 4y ago

Okay? A non zero amount of people think the Earth is flat. That doesn’t mean we need to take them seriously.

canadianfella 4y ago
[dead]

DonHopkins 4y ago

Maybe you should be more discerning about what MAGA crazed conspiracy theorist weirdos you read, and what MAGA crazed conspiracy theories you spread.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
I wouldn't say I'm aiming to spread them. I'm asking a bunch of people more educated than I (HackerNews readers) if there is any truth/concern to any of it. You can find 10 posts in the past 30 days where people here are saying "omg, greedy corporation does greedy thing". Just the other day we had a post saying "maybe the U.S. economy won't continue to grow forever and the stock market won't continue to return 7% a year" Asked ChatGPT > Is Wall Street known to be trustworthy and moral? > Over the years there have been many instances of scandals, manipulation and fraud on Wall Street, which has damaged the reputation of the street. Asked it this as well > Are there instances of the U.S. government hiding the truth/lying to its citizens/being inefficient with taxpayer money? > There have been instances in history where the U.S. government has been accused of hiding the truth, lying to its citizens, or being inefficient with taxpayer money. I'm just trying to have a conversation. These MAGA people get a ton of power when you shut them down because they can point and say "see! listen! they don't want our points to be voiced! that means we're onto something"
- danaris 4y ago
  ChatGPT's answers on questions like this aren't going to be usefully correct: they're merely going to repeat at best a synthesis/summary of what people have said on the topic in extant writings. But this is a question about trust and morals, which cannot be decided merely by consensus; any meaningful answer to it must be rooted in an actual value system and an understanding of trust.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > ChatGPT's answers on questions like this aren't going to be usefully correct: they're merely going to repeat at best a synthesis/summary of what people have said It might repeat what some people have said. ChatGPT isn't designed to determine a consensus or to use a representative sample.
    - danaris 4y ago
      Fair. My point was largely that it doesn't "know" or "understand" anything itself, in order to draw conclusions; it merely has a whole lot of text in it and a model that allows it to associate that text very convincingly to look like it knows stuff. Thus, any answer it gives on a question like this will not be based on a comprehensive analysis of data, but rather on what the model predicts people would most likely say about the subject.

lkrubner 4y ago

>> therefore, lots of debt that'll never get paid back The last time the national government of an English speaking nation defaulted on its debt was on January 2 of 1672, with the Stop Of The Exchequer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_of_the_Exchequer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_of_the_Exchequer We've now seen 351 years of debts being paid on time, so why would you think the government is suddenly not going to pay its debt? You'd need a strong thesis to explain why the 351 year old trend is coming to an end.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
Never said I don't think we'll pay our debt. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S How will that not limit us going forward / is the current rate of "just add it to debt/never pay it back" sustainable?
- chii 4y ago
  If people are willing to lend to the gov't (by purchasing bonds), then why is it not sustainable? Those who are doing the lending is effectively proclaiming that they don't foresee a stoppage of future lending.
  - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
    just because we can doesn't mean we should? Type "At what level does debt-to-GDP ratio hinder a nation?" into ChatGPT I'm not talking about collapse, I'm talking about hinderance going forward Raising debt, gotta service it, gotta raise taxes to pay for it or cut costs, no? https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/24/facts-about-the-national-debt/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/24/facts-about...
    - danaris 4y ago
      ChatGPT would only have a cogent answer to that if there were a well-accepted cogent answer in the extant literature. To the best of my understanding, any answers to that question in extant literature are either going to be highly theoretical, or about situations that are not sufficiently similar to that of the modern US to be helpful.