4 ms·

> “This is the first example I know of that a major, major feature is really coming to the Web despite there not really being a business case for the business t

by kccqzy 4y ago

> “This is the first example I know of that a major, major feature is really coming to the Web despite there not really being a business case for the business that normally advance the Web,” said Rick Byers of the Chrome team at Google. Paraphrased: It doesn't make money, so why do it?

rhn_mk1 4y ago
This makes me sad about the state of the Web. Worst thing is, it can't be fixed because the major money makers dictate where the 90% mindshare falls.
- t0xE8st 4y ago
  Igalia isn't a major money maker. It's barely a large company. But they were able to ship MathML in Chromium. Sure, they have over a decade of experience on working on web browsers, and I'm sure that played a role here, but is that the only reason they were able to work on something like this? Is Igalia special for being willing to put their own money towards improving the web, without an obvious return on investment?
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    > Is Igalia special for being willing to put their own money towards improving the web, without an obvious return on investment? Just to be clear: > monetary support from the National Information Standards Organization (NISO) via a grant from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Pearson, and APS Physics
    - t0xE8st 4y ago
      > [In Igalia] we have the ability to submit for investments for things that nobody is currently funding but we think deserve funding and deserve to move forward somehow. [...] Initially this came up about doing some work on MathML in WebKit [sic; Blink presumably]. That was years ago. We sponsored all that work, funded all that work, got it done. And then, there was another effort there to try to drive something forward enough to make a proposal and maybe fund it through grants and crowdfunding. So we did an initial thing based on also writing a grant and getting initial money for the project from the National Institute of Standards Organizations and the Alfred P Sloan Foundation. [...] Then we also got small amounts of funding, few thousands from Pearson and APS Physics. And then there was a period where there was no more funding to be had for about a year, year and a half. And so Igalia stepped back in and funded the work. It slowed down slightly toward the end there, but we kept it going the whole time. And then we started Open Collective. (https://www.igalia.com/chats/mathml-release https://www.igalia.com/chats/mathml-release) It seems like some of the work that Igalia did was externally funded, but far from all of it.
      - bkardell 4y ago
        > It seems like some of the work that Igalia did was externally funded, but far from all of it. Yes, that's right. Very far from all of it, but we're also very appreciative of those who did contribute funding. (I'm from Igalia/the host you're quoting) > about doing some work on MathML in WebKit [sic; Blink presumably https://twitter.com/webkit/status/756489720893411329?s=20&t=GUB-73tkVqUSHE0qCA9WjQ https://twitter.com/webkit/status/756489720893411329?s=20&t=... for example was also Igalia
mike_hearn 4y ago
It's a bit of a weird quote because it's not at all apparent how business cases for markup features would be decided on. Chrome is full of stuff that isn't obviously beneficial to Google's core business (WebXR? WebMIDI?), yet MathML is about enhancing the parseability of information in crawlable documents which you'd expect to be a priority for a search company.
- csande17 4y ago
  Standards like WebMIDI are used for fingerprinting.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    That's not good for Google though. They have an incentive to not allow fingerprinting, both because it's illegal so they don't do it, and also because most people are logged into Chrome so they don't need to do it.
    - csande17 4y ago
      Do you have a source on fingerprinting being illegal? A lot of website privacy policies mention that they will collect "information about your device hardware configuration" or similar language.
      - kmeisthax 4y ago
        EU GDPR says otherwise. Furthermore, using fingerprinting to bypass do-not-track functionality (e.g. Apple's App Tracking Transparency) will get you slapped with an FTC fine or lawsuits. Hell, Google knows this intimately, because they got caught bypassing P3P[0] with a bogus privacy policy string[1]. [0] P3P, or Platform for Privacy Preferences, is an obsolete standard for specifying machine-readable privacy policies from a combination of standard attributes. IE6 enforced it, AFAIK. [1] https://www.networkworld.com/article/2186056/google-says-ie-privacy-policy-is-impractical-in-modern-web.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2186056/google-says-ie-... https://www.cio.com/article/296774/security0-google-sued-for-violating-apple-browser-privacy-protection.html https://www.cio.com/article/296774/security0-google-sued-for...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by kccqzy 4y ago

rhn_mk1 4y ago

This makes me sad about the state of the Web. Worst thing is, it can't be fixed because the major money makers dictate where the 90% mindshare falls.

t0xE8st 4y ago
Igalia isn't a major money maker. It's barely a large company. But they were able to ship MathML in Chromium. Sure, they have over a decade of experience on working on web browsers, and I'm sure that played a role here, but is that the only reason they were able to work on something like this? Is Igalia special for being willing to put their own money towards improving the web, without an obvious return on investment?
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  > Is Igalia special for being willing to put their own money towards improving the web, without an obvious return on investment? Just to be clear: > monetary support from the National Information Standards Organization (NISO) via a grant from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Pearson, and APS Physics
  - t0xE8st 4y ago
    > [In Igalia] we have the ability to submit for investments for things that nobody is currently funding but we think deserve funding and deserve to move forward somehow. [...] Initially this came up about doing some work on MathML in WebKit [sic; Blink presumably]. That was years ago. We sponsored all that work, funded all that work, got it done. And then, there was another effort there to try to drive something forward enough to make a proposal and maybe fund it through grants and crowdfunding. So we did an initial thing based on also writing a grant and getting initial money for the project from the National Institute of Standards Organizations and the Alfred P Sloan Foundation. [...] Then we also got small amounts of funding, few thousands from Pearson and APS Physics. And then there was a period where there was no more funding to be had for about a year, year and a half. And so Igalia stepped back in and funded the work. It slowed down slightly toward the end there, but we kept it going the whole time. And then we started Open Collective. (https://www.igalia.com/chats/mathml-release https://www.igalia.com/chats/mathml-release) It seems like some of the work that Igalia did was externally funded, but far from all of it.
    - bkardell 4y ago
      > It seems like some of the work that Igalia did was externally funded, but far from all of it. Yes, that's right. Very far from all of it, but we're also very appreciative of those who did contribute funding. (I'm from Igalia/the host you're quoting) > about doing some work on MathML in WebKit [sic; Blink presumably https://twitter.com/webkit/status/756489720893411329?s=20&t=GUB-73tkVqUSHE0qCA9WjQ https://twitter.com/webkit/status/756489720893411329?s=20&t=... for example was also Igalia

mike_hearn 4y ago

It's a bit of a weird quote because it's not at all apparent how business cases for markup features would be decided on. Chrome is full of stuff that isn't obviously beneficial to Google's core business (WebXR? WebMIDI?), yet MathML is about enhancing the parseability of information in crawlable documents which you'd expect to be a priority for a search company.

csande17 4y ago
Standards like WebMIDI are used for fingerprinting.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  That's not good for Google though. They have an incentive to not allow fingerprinting, both because it's illegal so they don't do it, and also because most people are logged into Chrome so they don't need to do it.
  - csande17 4y ago
    Do you have a source on fingerprinting being illegal? A lot of website privacy policies mention that they will collect "information about your device hardware configuration" or similar language.
    - kmeisthax 4y ago
      EU GDPR says otherwise. Furthermore, using fingerprinting to bypass do-not-track functionality (e.g. Apple's App Tracking Transparency) will get you slapped with an FTC fine or lawsuits. Hell, Google knows this intimately, because they got caught bypassing P3P[0] with a bogus privacy policy string[1]. [0] P3P, or Platform for Privacy Preferences, is an obsolete standard for specifying machine-readable privacy policies from a combination of standard attributes. IE6 enforced it, AFAIK. [1] https://www.networkworld.com/article/2186056/google-says-ie-privacy-policy-is-impractical-in-modern-web.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2186056/google-says-ie-... https://www.cio.com/article/296774/security0-google-sued-for-violating-apple-browser-privacy-protection.html https://www.cio.com/article/296774/security0-google-sued-for...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]