4 ms·

A great example of how FSD/Autopilot is hugely flawed today. The car just does not give you clear indications of when or _why_ it is slowing down/swerving erra

A great example of how FSD/Autopilot is hugely flawed today. The car just does not give you clear indications of when or _why_ it is slowing down/swerving erratically in the lane when nothing is around. I get that about once a week. This is 100% the drivers fault though, it is extremely easy to override Autopilot. Tap the brakes will disable the entire system, press the accelerator will keep lane keeping on but override the speed, and moving the steering wheel will disable lane keeping but keep cruise control on.

andrewmunsell 4y ago
More often than not, I have my foot on the accelerator and not the brake when I am using AP. I don't drive a lot in general, but over the tens of thousands of miles on AP I had it hit the brakes hard enough to be a problem only once. It's definitely randomly slowed down many times, but with your foot on the accelerator it's very easy to override before it drops more than a couple MPH. Now, I've also heard people say that the phantom braking issue can be really violent and so it's very possible I've just never experienced true phantom braking, but based on how many of the drivers behind the initial wreck slammed into each other it's clear many folks do not pay enough attention or leave enough following distance to be safe.
- ncr100 4y ago
  Good data point. In this case it looks like the car not only breaks ... but it turned into an occupied lane. Then it stopped. It didn't stop gradually either. So I don't see how this is correct behavior on part of autopilot.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    or even turn on hazards. it just signalled and stopped.
methehack 4y ago
Given your description, I'm surprised you, or any responsible driver, would keep using the feature. It sounds really dangerous.
- revscat 4y ago
  It’s safer than not having it. I have had it for several years now and it has saved my butt more than once.
- darknavi 4y ago
  If you use it "correctly" (very subjective) it is a great driver assistant. On long road trips I am way less tired and can focus more on making sure my environment is safe (animals entering road) instead of focusing on lane keeping, etc. Most lane keeping/cruise control setups today from other OEMs would also be sufficient in most of the scenarios I enjoy AP though.
ne0flex 4y ago
You really have to be vigilant. In the summer of last year, my wife and I went to the Bay Area and I rented a Tesla with FSD. While driving from Santa Cruz to Redwood City, I decided to put on the FSD. The car drove fine for a bit then randomly decided to switch to the left lane despite there being no cars in front of us. While trying to figure out what was going on I start to hear a honking as there was a car in my blind spot that was trying to overtake me at the moment the car tried to switch lanes. I grabbed the wheel and luckily nothing happened. Never trusting FSD after that.
- kbos87 4y ago
  I've had autopilot try to execute a lane change at the same time a driver two lanes over was trying to do the same thing into the same spot. It was one of those unavoidable situations, but Autopilot corrected quickly back to its original lane without me needing to intervene.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
et-al 4y ago
This is 100% the driver's fault for deciding to enable Tesla's "Autopilot" on a public road in late 2022. No one should be surprised when "Autopilot" shits the bed.
- maerF0x0 4y ago
  Why? Cruise is driving around the streets of SF with nobody in the drivers seat. Why shouldnt someone be surprised that their autopilot works? What we should be more surprised about is the total failure of our government agencies to be with the times and create proper regulation and specifications of operation and testing.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    Cruise and Tesla use completely different technologies for the self driving solutions. Cruise self driving is built on solid technological foundations, whereas Tesla self driving is built on hype and hope, surrounded by a cult of personality. I believe that's why the parent comment included the date - to indicate that we should all know by now in 2022 that Musk can't deliver on their claims. That doesn't mean others won't.
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      Tell me you honestly believe that most drivers know the difference beyond "I can sit in the backseat" or not...
- ncr100 4y ago
  No. Autopilots on aircraft don't suddenly nosedive the airplane and try to land on whatever arbitrary terrain is underneath the aircraft. This is Tesla's fault for designing a product that is not appropriate for current roadways.
marklubi 4y ago
> This is 100% the drivers fault though, it is extremely easy to override Autopilot That's speculation. Do we know if the car had suddenly lost the ability to continue driving? Was the car pulling to the closest side of the road? If you lose power in a gas powered vehicle, have a flat, or some other failure when you're in the far left lane, what should be done? From the video, it looks like a lot of people are following way too closely. Far less than the 3-second rule would allow for. The first vehicle behind that crashed got caught by the sudden lane change. The second vehicle avoided rear ending them. You can see the weight and suspension settle just before it gets hit from behind. Three was slowing and trying to avoid the crash (it shifts lanes and makes it past), while the fourth was in a rush to get past three (you can barely see it, that's how close they were following). While the quick pull to the left side of the road probably initiated things and caused the first vehicle to rear end the Tesla, the pile up is the fault of the fourth car (which can barely be seen behind the pickup that managed to avoid it), and all the others that were clearly following way too closely.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  > If you lose power in a gas powered vehicle Safely merge right and stop in the shoulder if possible, but in heavy traffic like this put the hazard lights on and slowly stop without changing lanes. Call the police -- do not get out of the car while there are still lanes with moving traffic. In wealthier-Europe the police would activate electronic "60km/h", "lane closed" and similar signs. It's a long time since I drove in the USA, I can't remember if you have these. > have a flat If you must stop quicker pulse the brakes if possible (the flashing lights draw more attention), but again, don't change lanes. Changing lanes caused the problem, which was compounded by the too-close following vehicles. Some of those vehicles also changed lanes dangerously, when they should have stopped in their current lane. For what it's worth, a vehicle two ahead of me crashed into the central barrier in my final driving lesson.
- darknavi 4y ago
  > Do we know if the car had suddenly lost the ability to continue driving? We don't know if it is 100% the driver's fault. But we do know with reasonable certainty that AP did not "lock out" a driver or anything. Autopilot is universally override-able.
ncr100 4y ago
It's an anti-pattern, this product. And, I would not say that it's 100% the driver's fault. The feature is named autopilot or full self-driving, it's misnamed. All the marketing and hype puts prospective drivers into the nod and wink mindset that they don't have to drive when they have a self-driving vehicle. It gives the driver the wrong impression. Only after experience would you have accumulated the wisdom to treat it a lot more conservatively. In my opinion if I were to own one of these things I would be Embarrassed and offended at the notion that I spent tens of thousands of dollars on a piece of software in a special vehicle only to have it not do what I expected it to do. It's an anti-pattern.

andrewmunsell 4y ago

More often than not, I have my foot on the accelerator and not the brake when I am using AP. I don't drive a lot in general, but over the tens of thousands of miles on AP I had it hit the brakes hard enough to be a problem only once. It's definitely randomly slowed down many times, but with your foot on the accelerator it's very easy to override before it drops more than a couple MPH. Now, I've also heard people say that the phantom braking issue can be really violent and so it's very possible I've just never experienced true phantom braking, but based on how many of the drivers behind the initial wreck slammed into each other it's clear many folks do not pay enough attention or leave enough following distance to be safe.

ncr100 4y ago
Good data point. In this case it looks like the car not only breaks ... but it turned into an occupied lane. Then it stopped. It didn't stop gradually either. So I don't see how this is correct behavior on part of autopilot.
- katbyte 4y ago
  or even turn on hazards. it just signalled and stopped.

methehack 4y ago

Given your description, I'm surprised you, or any responsible driver, would keep using the feature. It sounds really dangerous.

revscat 4y ago
It’s safer than not having it. I have had it for several years now and it has saved my butt more than once.
darknavi 4y ago
If you use it "correctly" (very subjective) it is a great driver assistant. On long road trips I am way less tired and can focus more on making sure my environment is safe (animals entering road) instead of focusing on lane keeping, etc. Most lane keeping/cruise control setups today from other OEMs would also be sufficient in most of the scenarios I enjoy AP though.

ne0flex 4y ago

You really have to be vigilant. In the summer of last year, my wife and I went to the Bay Area and I rented a Tesla with FSD. While driving from Santa Cruz to Redwood City, I decided to put on the FSD. The car drove fine for a bit then randomly decided to switch to the left lane despite there being no cars in front of us. While trying to figure out what was going on I start to hear a honking as there was a car in my blind spot that was trying to overtake me at the moment the car tried to switch lanes. I grabbed the wheel and luckily nothing happened. Never trusting FSD after that.

kbos87 4y ago
I've had autopilot try to execute a lane change at the same time a driver two lanes over was trying to do the same thing into the same spot. It was one of those unavoidable situations, but Autopilot corrected quickly back to its original lane without me needing to intervene.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

et-al 4y ago

This is 100% the driver's fault for deciding to enable Tesla's "Autopilot" on a public road in late 2022. No one should be surprised when "Autopilot" shits the bed.

maerF0x0 4y ago
Why? Cruise is driving around the streets of SF with nobody in the drivers seat. Why shouldnt someone be surprised that their autopilot works? What we should be more surprised about is the total failure of our government agencies to be with the times and create proper regulation and specifications of operation and testing.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Cruise and Tesla use completely different technologies for the self driving solutions. Cruise self driving is built on solid technological foundations, whereas Tesla self driving is built on hype and hope, surrounded by a cult of personality. I believe that's why the parent comment included the date - to indicate that we should all know by now in 2022 that Musk can't deliver on their claims. That doesn't mean others won't.
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    Tell me you honestly believe that most drivers know the difference beyond "I can sit in the backseat" or not...
ncr100 4y ago
No. Autopilots on aircraft don't suddenly nosedive the airplane and try to land on whatever arbitrary terrain is underneath the aircraft. This is Tesla's fault for designing a product that is not appropriate for current roadways.

marklubi 4y ago

> This is 100% the drivers fault though, it is extremely easy to override Autopilot That's speculation. Do we know if the car had suddenly lost the ability to continue driving? Was the car pulling to the closest side of the road? If you lose power in a gas powered vehicle, have a flat, or some other failure when you're in the far left lane, what should be done? From the video, it looks like a lot of people are following way too closely. Far less than the 3-second rule would allow for. The first vehicle behind that crashed got caught by the sudden lane change. The second vehicle avoided rear ending them. You can see the weight and suspension settle just before it gets hit from behind. Three was slowing and trying to avoid the crash (it shifts lanes and makes it past), while the fourth was in a rush to get past three (you can barely see it, that's how close they were following). While the quick pull to the left side of the road probably initiated things and caused the first vehicle to rear end the Tesla, the pile up is the fault of the fourth car (which can barely be seen behind the pickup that managed to avoid it), and all the others that were clearly following way too closely.

Symbiote 4y ago
> If you lose power in a gas powered vehicle Safely merge right and stop in the shoulder if possible, but in heavy traffic like this put the hazard lights on and slowly stop without changing lanes. Call the police -- do not get out of the car while there are still lanes with moving traffic. In wealthier-Europe the police would activate electronic "60km/h", "lane closed" and similar signs. It's a long time since I drove in the USA, I can't remember if you have these. > have a flat If you must stop quicker pulse the brakes if possible (the flashing lights draw more attention), but again, don't change lanes. Changing lanes caused the problem, which was compounded by the too-close following vehicles. Some of those vehicles also changed lanes dangerously, when they should have stopped in their current lane. For what it's worth, a vehicle two ahead of me crashed into the central barrier in my final driving lesson.
darknavi 4y ago
> Do we know if the car had suddenly lost the ability to continue driving? We don't know if it is 100% the driver's fault. But we do know with reasonable certainty that AP did not "lock out" a driver or anything. Autopilot is universally override-able.

ncr100 4y ago

It's an anti-pattern, this product. And, I would not say that it's 100% the driver's fault. The feature is named autopilot or full self-driving, it's misnamed. All the marketing and hype puts prospective drivers into the nod and wink mindset that they don't have to drive when they have a self-driving vehicle. It gives the driver the wrong impression. Only after experience would you have accumulated the wisdom to treat it a lot more conservatively. In my opinion if I were to own one of these things I would be Embarrassed and offended at the notion that I spent tens of thousands of dollars on a piece of software in a special vehicle only to have it not do what I expected it to do. It's an anti-pattern.