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Current wargames on YouTube based on DCS show the F-35 reaching kill ratios in excess of 5:1 against 4th gen fighters in bvr. Modern f-16s and f-15s are only sl

by lumost 4y ago

Current wargames on YouTube based on DCS show the F-35 reaching kill ratios in excess of 5:1 against 4th gen fighters in bvr. Modern f-16s and f-15s are only slightly cheaper than the f-35.

vfclists 4y ago
Don't they have to get in the air first? And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  "And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s." Those are both 45+ year old airframes as well. You're going to have to upgrade to something new eventually...
- andrewnicolalde 4y ago
  Any kind of stealthiness for one. There are versions of the F-15 which attempt to be more stealthy than the base airframe, but it’s a far cry from being as stealthy as any purpose-built aircraft.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s. Yikes. 1. Stealth 2. Sensor fusion with other aircraft 3. Carrier landing/launch 4. An airframe that isn't on the verge of forced retirement due to accumulated flight hours and metal fatigue, like many/most of the F16s and F15s The F16 and F15 are arguably more capable in movie-style dogfights. They can pull 9Gs while the F35 can do 7G IIRC with superior thrust to weight. In a guns-only dogfight maybe you want one of those. But that misses the point. Modern air combat is not about movie style dogfights. It's about hitting your enemy with a missile from beyond visual range before he even knows that you or the missile exist. Perhaps even more crucially, it's about surviving enemy ground defenses. Anti-aircraft defenses including man-portable missiles are cheap and getting more deadly by the day. No stealth? You're dead. You're not just dead; you were an easy kill. "Stealth" is not a binary property of course; "stealth" aircraft can be detected with enough luck and effort. But stealth is table stakes for not being easy pickings. You can see this in Ukraine. Neither side has stealth, neither side has established clear air superiority.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    This is a new thing, not sure if Canada considered it or not: https://www.military.com/equipment/military-aircraft/everything-you-need-know-about-air-forces-new-f-15ex.html https://www.military.com/equipment/military-aircraft/everyth...
    - JohnBooty 4y ago
      It's not stealthy, particularly when loaded with munitions. So it fills a much different role. However, it is a bonkers airborne munitions truck that can carry a loooot of missiles and bombs. A common bit of speculation is that eventually what you could see is the F-15EX used in conjunction with stealthier fighters like the F-35 (and/or drones?) in mixed formations. The F-35s only carry 4 missiles in the internal bays. The F-35s can scout and relay targeting information to the F-15EX, which can then deliver the hurt from a safe distance.
      - lumost 4y ago
        For a crazy comparison, it's worth taking a look at the B-1R concept. It was a b-1 refitted for air to air combat. In a bvr battle of missile trucks, it may be beneficial to have separate platforms optimized for sensing and attack. Maneuverability may not be required if the aircraft can remain high and fast.
        JohnBooty 4y ago
        Yeah! Exactly. Imagine trying to fight a layered airborne force with airborne refueling, a fleet of aircraft carriers, AWACS, "missile trucks", agile manned stealthy fighters, and drones. Most of this is possible today and the rest is close. The cost is obviously insane, and that's part of the appeal for the US. For the moment they own the skies in a comprehensive way that nobody else can even remotely afford to challenge. Look at the US's dominance in Desert Storm, and consider that the gap has probably widened since then. I'm neither endorsing this nor criticizing it by the way. The US does this while a lot of its citizens don't even have healthcare, for example. The ethical issues are infinite!
- justapassenger 4y ago
  What advanced systems from PS5 cannot be retrofitted into PS1? But to answer your question - stealth airframe. And it’s an enormous benefit - you can’t shoot what you can’t detect. And if that thing has long range weapon systems, good luck.
Thaxll 4y ago
DCS is a videogame, 5:1 in a videogame means nothing. DCS knows nothing about missiles, radar, electronic warfare and the like. It does not even get basic stuff like plane handling realistic.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  It’s a simulator, and prior to real action yes that is the best data you have available. I guess you’re proposing we go start a few skirmishes with a near-peer adversary every time we have a new weapons system to evaluate?
  - JimtheCoder 4y ago
    "and prior to real action yes that is the best data you have available." I am pretty sure the US military does their own wargames to get data for things like this, and I highly doubt they are using DCS as a data source...
    - threeseed 4y ago
      > and I highly doubt they are using DCS as a data source No one said they did. But they do use simulators for training and mission planning: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-35-lightning-ii-training-systems.html https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-35-lightning...
  - Thaxll 4y ago
    DCS has 0 information about real life data on modern planes so how would it represent anything close to reality?
    - _3u10 4y ago
      Former pilots use it… I would imagine they would know. The F-35 in particular isn’t super well modeled but it gets killed by what you’d expect to kill it, namely the raptor. Face it stealth is a huge advantage in BVR when you are well outside the WEZ of fox 2’s. And yes the F-35 gets killed in dogfights, however it slays pretty much everything in BVR. Also reports from war games report the same kinds of kill ratios, basically until the F-35 runs out of missiles it will kill every 4th gen
operatingthetan 4y ago
In addition to the other criticisms, the F35 in DCS is a mod, and not even correctly modelled compared to the other planes.

by lumost 4y ago

Current wargames on YouTube based on DCS show the F-35 reaching kill ratios in excess of 5:1 against 4th gen fighters in bvr. Modern f-16s and f-15s are only slightly cheaper than the f-35.

vfclists 4y ago

Don't they have to get in the air first? And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
JimtheCoder 4y ago
"And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s." Those are both 45+ year old airframes as well. You're going to have to upgrade to something new eventually...
andrewnicolalde 4y ago
Any kind of stealthiness for one. There are versions of the F-15 which attempt to be more stealthy than the base airframe, but it’s a far cry from being as stealthy as any purpose-built aircraft.
JohnBooty 4y ago
And what advanced systems are present in the F-35 which can't be retrofitted into the F16s and F15s. Yikes. 1. Stealth 2. Sensor fusion with other aircraft 3. Carrier landing/launch 4. An airframe that isn't on the verge of forced retirement due to accumulated flight hours and metal fatigue, like many/most of the F16s and F15s The F16 and F15 are arguably more capable in movie-style dogfights. They can pull 9Gs while the F35 can do 7G IIRC with superior thrust to weight. In a guns-only dogfight maybe you want one of those. But that misses the point. Modern air combat is not about movie style dogfights. It's about hitting your enemy with a missile from beyond visual range before he even knows that you or the missile exist. Perhaps even more crucially, it's about surviving enemy ground defenses. Anti-aircraft defenses including man-portable missiles are cheap and getting more deadly by the day. No stealth? You're dead. You're not just dead; you were an easy kill. "Stealth" is not a binary property of course; "stealth" aircraft can be detected with enough luck and effort. But stealth is table stakes for not being easy pickings. You can see this in Ukraine. Neither side has stealth, neither side has established clear air superiority.
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  This is a new thing, not sure if Canada considered it or not: https://www.military.com/equipment/military-aircraft/everything-you-need-know-about-air-forces-new-f-15ex.html https://www.military.com/equipment/military-aircraft/everyth...
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    It's not stealthy, particularly when loaded with munitions. So it fills a much different role. However, it is a bonkers airborne munitions truck that can carry a loooot of missiles and bombs. A common bit of speculation is that eventually what you could see is the F-15EX used in conjunction with stealthier fighters like the F-35 (and/or drones?) in mixed formations. The F-35s only carry 4 missiles in the internal bays. The F-35s can scout and relay targeting information to the F-15EX, which can then deliver the hurt from a safe distance.
    - lumost 4y ago
      For a crazy comparison, it's worth taking a look at the B-1R concept. It was a b-1 refitted for air to air combat. In a bvr battle of missile trucks, it may be beneficial to have separate platforms optimized for sensing and attack. Maneuverability may not be required if the aircraft can remain high and fast.
      - JohnBooty 4y ago
        Yeah! Exactly. Imagine trying to fight a layered airborne force with airborne refueling, a fleet of aircraft carriers, AWACS, "missile trucks", agile manned stealthy fighters, and drones. Most of this is possible today and the rest is close. The cost is obviously insane, and that's part of the appeal for the US. For the moment they own the skies in a comprehensive way that nobody else can even remotely afford to challenge. Look at the US's dominance in Desert Storm, and consider that the gap has probably widened since then. I'm neither endorsing this nor criticizing it by the way. The US does this while a lot of its citizens don't even have healthcare, for example. The ethical issues are infinite!
justapassenger 4y ago
What advanced systems from PS5 cannot be retrofitted into PS1? But to answer your question - stealth airframe. And it’s an enormous benefit - you can’t shoot what you can’t detect. And if that thing has long range weapon systems, good luck.

Thaxll 4y ago

DCS is a videogame, 5:1 in a videogame means nothing. DCS knows nothing about missiles, radar, electronic warfare and the like. It does not even get basic stuff like plane handling realistic.

ethanbond 4y ago
It’s a simulator, and prior to real action yes that is the best data you have available. I guess you’re proposing we go start a few skirmishes with a near-peer adversary every time we have a new weapons system to evaluate?
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  "and prior to real action yes that is the best data you have available." I am pretty sure the US military does their own wargames to get data for things like this, and I highly doubt they are using DCS as a data source...
  - threeseed 4y ago
    > and I highly doubt they are using DCS as a data source No one said they did. But they do use simulators for training and mission planning: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-35-lightning-ii-training-systems.html https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-35-lightning...
- Thaxll 4y ago
  DCS has 0 information about real life data on modern planes so how would it represent anything close to reality?
  - _3u10 4y ago
    Former pilots use it… I would imagine they would know. The F-35 in particular isn’t super well modeled but it gets killed by what you’d expect to kill it, namely the raptor. Face it stealth is a huge advantage in BVR when you are well outside the WEZ of fox 2’s. And yes the F-35 gets killed in dogfights, however it slays pretty much everything in BVR. Also reports from war games report the same kinds of kill ratios, basically until the F-35 runs out of missiles it will kill every 4th gen

operatingthetan 4y ago

In addition to the other criticisms, the F35 in DCS is a mod, and not even correctly modelled compared to the other planes.