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I feel like Drew has been in a pissing match with the Go team for a while so this outcome doesnt surprise me. I love Go but not Google's stewardship of it. The

I feel like Drew has been in a pissing match with the Go team for a while so this outcome doesnt surprise me. I love Go but not Google's stewardship of it. The tracking proxy, Russ' takeover / squash of the package management work, the weird silence / stonewalling on other community issues... Drew has a valid complaint. I hate to hear he was banned from the issue tracker but that sounds about right. As a sibling said - GOPRIVATE is probably a good solution without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

wwarner 4y ago
Have to agree in as much banning people with legitimate issues is unhelpful. I was also taken aback when Peter Bourgon, a great programmer and contributor to the go ecosystem was banned from all go channels.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > I was also taken aback when Peter Bourgon, a great programmer and contributor to the go ecosystem was banned from all go channels. Bourgon was frequently helpful and great, but also frequently rude, condensing, dismissive, and generally just unpleasant. I've seen this countless of times first-hand on Slack, Reddit, and Lobsters. I specifically stopped interacting with him long before he was banned. Whether he's a great programmer/contributor not isn't really important here. I kind of hate how it's brought up here because I think he's not a bad bloke at all and I know the entire situation caused great personal hurt to him. But that doesn't change that he was the kind of "brilliant jerk" that would chase people out of the community with his behaviour, and that he was unreceptive to criticism of it (often getting pretty defensive/aggressive). No one liked how all of this turned out, but it did make the Go community a better place. Being helpful yesterday doesn't cancel out being a jerk today. Same with Drew: he posted legitimate helpful issues. And he also ranted about how people were all a bunch of morons. I don't blame anyone for getting tired of that.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    > And he also ranted about how people were all a bunch of morons. I don't blame anyone for getting tired of that. Do you have a source?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-464278183 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-46427... I don't have a full list of all posts at hand (some of which may be removed), but I've seen some other similar stuff as well; it's not an isolated incident. I was reading through the previous thread on this issue (goproxy sending loads of requests) and this one was posted as an example there.
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        Thanks, that is indeed not the greatest of comments.
        dcow 4y ago
        [flagged]
        morelisp 4y ago
        > personal vendetta This is a weird definition of "personal", like PGP kicked his dog or something. The arguments he makes against it are detailed and the agreement of most working cryptographers, even if they don't agree with his specific deprecation schedule. Some people would call that "good engineering".
        dcow 4y ago
        “Good engineering” would be to meticulously develop and standardize a replacement before idealistically purging the world of alleged “bad software”. Since this endeavor has yet to be undertaken, PGP it is. Good engineers understand this reality. Look, you can make solid arguments till you are blue in the face about why PGP is unclean and unfit for modern cryptography. And you can be 100% right. But that doesn't mean people who disagree are wrong. There are 100% valid arguments and use cases for PGP too. It takes a mature personality to understand this nuance. And to understand that sharing a mic drop piece about why PGP sucks, getting your security buddies to laugh with you, and then trying to rip it out of existence is incredibly short sighted, ill mannered, and not in the least bit “good engineering”.
- Zamicol 4y ago
  I've blocked many of the people that called for Peter's ban on Twitter. I don't want to be on their radar or a target of some sort of witch hunt. I consider myself a nice person and not inflammatory/offensive, but I'm a belt and suspenders type of person. It's more important that I can submit an issue on the tracker than interacting "socially" with people who have a higher chance of ostracizing targeted individuals. The risks in my mind now far outweigh the rewards.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Why were people calling for Peter's ban? I'm having a hard time imagining behavior that is so toxic that it merits a ban when "publicly advocating for banning someone from the community" is apparently fair play.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Zamicol 4y ago
      For Peter: https://old.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/ppluux/peter_bourgon_banned_from_all_go_community_spaces/ https://old.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/ppluux/peter_bourgo... And Drew talks "harshly". Says things like "shitty usage of the GPG command line tool by applications" where, "shitty" is considered by some crossing a line https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-464276835 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-46427... Both are abrasive, but in my mind, this is a cultural issue. I grew up in a judgmental, holier-than-thou religion that I rejected at an early age and then was ex-communicated from on my 18th birthday. I've lived this pattern of judgement and ostracisation. It's dangerous, closed minded, and wrong. One of the reasons I work in software is because I'm a "strange" person. I say things people don't understand, my value system is radically different from my peers and "normies". I am a very different type of person. Software was a safe place for weird people, including the productive, but sometimes abrasive. It's a shame to make software not a place for a wide range of diverse people. In my difference, I don't want my cultural differences to be targeted by witch hunts, those looking for blood to prop up their own "moral superiority". And I personally have no cultural issue with people who say things like, "shitty usage of the GPG command line tool by applications." They're welcome in my circles as I sincerely consider myself less judgmental than those calling for a ban, but perhaps in kindness I can urge people who say stuff like that to, over time, to be more kind and sensitive. Kindness is a skill that needs development. Not everyone is in the same place. It's certainly something I'm working on every day. And if not, that's okay too, not all of us are built with the same social skills, and that's okay. To _not_ be self-righteous requires long-suffering. Peter and Drew were worth more effort.
- counttheforks 4y ago
  Why does the Go team ban so many people? Doesn't sound like a healthy community.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    > Why does the Go team ban so many people? As far as I know, they don't. AFAIK the two cases discussed here are the only two notable ones (that is, people who are not outright trolls and the like).
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    How many?
  - philosopher1234 4y ago
    You don't mean what you say.
no_wizard 4y ago
What’s the deal on package mangement? They did quite a few iterations here so I don’t follow. Don’t know about the Russ takeover either
- pjmlp 4y ago
  TL;DR version. Go package management was quite poor for many real use cases outside Google, so the community railed around many competing proposals, and when it appeared there was a clear winner, the Go team came out with their own solution instead. This after kind of supporting the ongoing community efforts.
  - xena 4y ago
    Even more fun, Google doesn't even use Go modules internally! They use their own homegrown build system abomination that requires teams of people to maintain.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jen20 4y ago
      Is this something other than Bazel (or the progenitor thereof)? If so, calling it an abomination compared to the unfinished go build system is rather strong.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        Google's internal build system is called Blaze, and (as I understand it) it supports tons of use cases that the Go tool doesn't: * Distributing build jobs across clusters * Targeting any arbitrary platform, architecture combination * Supporting multiple languages and toolchains * Arbitrary build-time script execution (e.g., code generation)
        mseepgood 4y ago
pjmlp 4y ago
Many issues with Go design steem from "how Google does it", this is just yet another one.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I doubt this is true in any objective sense. "issues" above is almost certainly subjective, and I don't think even in this particular case it's so much "how Google does it" as much as "Google isn't prioritizing limited Go-team resources to this issue right now". In general, I've been very happy with Go's design for the last decade with relatively few, relatively minor exceptions. I specifically have enjoyed that the Go team has resisted demands from the wider community to add every feature that every other programming language has support for. Biasing toward minimalism has made the language very easy to learn and consequently any Go programmer can jump into any Go project and start being productive in a matter of minutes, and any non-Go programmer can be productive in a matter of hours. Similarly, the tooling is novel in that it has sane defaults (static, native compilation; testing out of the box; profiling out of the box; build tooling out of the box; reproducible package management and hosting out of the box; documentation generation and hosting out of the box; etc).
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I guess following Turbo Pascal and Delphi tooling might feel novel to those that never used it.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      The pedants among us might prefer: "novel among mainstream programming languages of the 21st century which predated Go".
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Pity that even Limbo from 20th century was more feature rich than Go.
brnt 4y ago
Seems like they could also let one request per hour through, say, and then serve up the rest a 429. Users trying to clone their project would hit an almost certainly up to date Google cache and thus be happy and sr.ht save on pretty much all that traffic and thus be also happy.
- Pet_Ant 4y ago
  I like this because it feels like malicious compliance and it would allow Google to seemlessly continue working should Google figure out their caching situation. Plus it uses a rarely used HTTP status. Love it.
  - lanstin 4y ago
    I have seen more 429, almost all from large cloud providers, a fair amount in the last 5 years. Never before then, I was used to making rate limiting an in-band part of the API explicitly. AWS S3 will give you 429s before giving you 503s when you hit it with a go program touching every object or every version in a giant bucket from a 56 core machine and a few hundred Go routine workers. It is a good signal: if you do exponential back off per worker on the 429s, you won’t see the 503s.
- nouveaux 4y ago
  I think the actions here are meant to generate attention. Google is acting in bad faith and needs to be called out.
- m4lvin 4y ago
  I thought that too, but then sr.ht needs to keep state which IP made how many requests already, and as the post mentions google makes these requests from many different places. So they would have to count requests from the specific user agent and by that point it is again special purpose work and load on sr.ht (whereas general rate limiting per IP might be a good idea anyway).
  - brnt 4y ago
    Per blogpost: > git clone requests with a GoModuleMirror User-Agent will receive a 429 So only one counter seems to be needed. Sure, it's doing work for an adversarial party, but it's not much extra work either.
alphazard 4y ago
Drew strikes me as very ideological, so it's refreshing to see a move this pragmatic. This has a better chance at bringing awareness to these issues, and resolving the crawler bullying than his usual antics.
calvinmorrison 4y ago
Doesn't sound like a pissing match: "Due to the relatively large traffic requirements of git clones, this represents about 70% of all outgoing network traffic from git.sr.ht. A single module can produce as much as 4 GiB of daily traffic from Google."
znpy 4y ago
The go language should probably be spun off to an independent non-profit foundation. Of course I’m well aware this is not going to happen.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

wwarner 4y ago

Have to agree in as much banning people with legitimate issues is unhelpful. I was also taken aback when Peter Bourgon, a great programmer and contributor to the go ecosystem was banned from all go channels.

Beltalowda 4y ago
> I was also taken aback when Peter Bourgon, a great programmer and contributor to the go ecosystem was banned from all go channels. Bourgon was frequently helpful and great, but also frequently rude, condensing, dismissive, and generally just unpleasant. I've seen this countless of times first-hand on Slack, Reddit, and Lobsters. I specifically stopped interacting with him long before he was banned. Whether he's a great programmer/contributor not isn't really important here. I kind of hate how it's brought up here because I think he's not a bad bloke at all and I know the entire situation caused great personal hurt to him. But that doesn't change that he was the kind of "brilliant jerk" that would chase people out of the community with his behaviour, and that he was unreceptive to criticism of it (often getting pretty defensive/aggressive). No one liked how all of this turned out, but it did make the Go community a better place. Being helpful yesterday doesn't cancel out being a jerk today. Same with Drew: he posted legitimate helpful issues. And he also ranted about how people were all a bunch of morons. I don't blame anyone for getting tired of that.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > And he also ranted about how people were all a bunch of morons. I don't blame anyone for getting tired of that. Do you have a source?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-464278183 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-46427... I don't have a full list of all posts at hand (some of which may be removed), but I've seen some other similar stuff as well; it's not an isolated incident. I was reading through the previous thread on this issue (goproxy sending loads of requests) and this one was posted as an example there.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      Thanks, that is indeed not the greatest of comments.
      - dcow 4y ago
        [flagged]
        morelisp 4y ago
        > personal vendetta This is a weird definition of "personal", like PGP kicked his dog or something. The arguments he makes against it are detailed and the agreement of most working cryptographers, even if they don't agree with his specific deprecation schedule. Some people would call that "good engineering".
        dcow 4y ago
        “Good engineering” would be to meticulously develop and standardize a replacement before idealistically purging the world of alleged “bad software”. Since this endeavor has yet to be undertaken, PGP it is. Good engineers understand this reality. Look, you can make solid arguments till you are blue in the face about why PGP is unclean and unfit for modern cryptography. And you can be 100% right. But that doesn't mean people who disagree are wrong. There are 100% valid arguments and use cases for PGP too. It takes a mature personality to understand this nuance. And to understand that sharing a mic drop piece about why PGP sucks, getting your security buddies to laugh with you, and then trying to rip it out of existence is incredibly short sighted, ill mannered, and not in the least bit “good engineering”.
Zamicol 4y ago
I've blocked many of the people that called for Peter's ban on Twitter. I don't want to be on their radar or a target of some sort of witch hunt. I consider myself a nice person and not inflammatory/offensive, but I'm a belt and suspenders type of person. It's more important that I can submit an issue on the tracker than interacting "socially" with people who have a higher chance of ostracizing targeted individuals. The risks in my mind now far outweigh the rewards.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Why were people calling for Peter's ban? I'm having a hard time imagining behavior that is so toxic that it merits a ban when "publicly advocating for banning someone from the community" is apparently fair play.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Zamicol 4y ago
    For Peter: https://old.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/ppluux/peter_bourgon_banned_from_all_go_community_spaces/ https://old.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/ppluux/peter_bourgo... And Drew talks "harshly". Says things like "shitty usage of the GPG command line tool by applications" where, "shitty" is considered by some crossing a line https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-464276835 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/30141#issuecomment-46427... Both are abrasive, but in my mind, this is a cultural issue. I grew up in a judgmental, holier-than-thou religion that I rejected at an early age and then was ex-communicated from on my 18th birthday. I've lived this pattern of judgement and ostracisation. It's dangerous, closed minded, and wrong. One of the reasons I work in software is because I'm a "strange" person. I say things people don't understand, my value system is radically different from my peers and "normies". I am a very different type of person. Software was a safe place for weird people, including the productive, but sometimes abrasive. It's a shame to make software not a place for a wide range of diverse people. In my difference, I don't want my cultural differences to be targeted by witch hunts, those looking for blood to prop up their own "moral superiority". And I personally have no cultural issue with people who say things like, "shitty usage of the GPG command line tool by applications." They're welcome in my circles as I sincerely consider myself less judgmental than those calling for a ban, but perhaps in kindness I can urge people who say stuff like that to, over time, to be more kind and sensitive. Kindness is a skill that needs development. Not everyone is in the same place. It's certainly something I'm working on every day. And if not, that's okay too, not all of us are built with the same social skills, and that's okay. To _not_ be self-righteous requires long-suffering. Peter and Drew were worth more effort.
counttheforks 4y ago
Why does the Go team ban so many people? Doesn't sound like a healthy community.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > Why does the Go team ban so many people? As far as I know, they don't. AFAIK the two cases discussed here are the only two notable ones (that is, people who are not outright trolls and the like).
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  How many?
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  You don't mean what you say.

no_wizard 4y ago

What’s the deal on package mangement? They did quite a few iterations here so I don’t follow. Don’t know about the Russ takeover either

pjmlp 4y ago
TL;DR version. Go package management was quite poor for many real use cases outside Google, so the community railed around many competing proposals, and when it appeared there was a clear winner, the Go team came out with their own solution instead. This after kind of supporting the ongoing community efforts.
- xena 4y ago
  Even more fun, Google doesn't even use Go modules internally! They use their own homegrown build system abomination that requires teams of people to maintain.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jen20 4y ago
    Is this something other than Bazel (or the progenitor thereof)? If so, calling it an abomination compared to the unfinished go build system is rather strong.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Google's internal build system is called Blaze, and (as I understand it) it supports tons of use cases that the Go tool doesn't: * Distributing build jobs across clusters * Targeting any arbitrary platform, architecture combination * Supporting multiple languages and toolchains * Arbitrary build-time script execution (e.g., code generation)
      - mseepgood 4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago

Many issues with Go design steem from "how Google does it", this is just yet another one.

throwaway894345 4y ago
I doubt this is true in any objective sense. "issues" above is almost certainly subjective, and I don't think even in this particular case it's so much "how Google does it" as much as "Google isn't prioritizing limited Go-team resources to this issue right now". In general, I've been very happy with Go's design for the last decade with relatively few, relatively minor exceptions. I specifically have enjoyed that the Go team has resisted demands from the wider community to add every feature that every other programming language has support for. Biasing toward minimalism has made the language very easy to learn and consequently any Go programmer can jump into any Go project and start being productive in a matter of minutes, and any non-Go programmer can be productive in a matter of hours. Similarly, the tooling is novel in that it has sane defaults (static, native compilation; testing out of the box; profiling out of the box; build tooling out of the box; reproducible package management and hosting out of the box; documentation generation and hosting out of the box; etc).
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I guess following Turbo Pascal and Delphi tooling might feel novel to those that never used it.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    The pedants among us might prefer: "novel among mainstream programming languages of the 21st century which predated Go".
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Pity that even Limbo from 20th century was more feature rich than Go.

brnt 4y ago

Seems like they could also let one request per hour through, say, and then serve up the rest a 429. Users trying to clone their project would hit an almost certainly up to date Google cache and thus be happy and sr.ht save on pretty much all that traffic and thus be also happy.

Pet_Ant 4y ago
I like this because it feels like malicious compliance and it would allow Google to seemlessly continue working should Google figure out their caching situation. Plus it uses a rarely used HTTP status. Love it.
- lanstin 4y ago
  I have seen more 429, almost all from large cloud providers, a fair amount in the last 5 years. Never before then, I was used to making rate limiting an in-band part of the API explicitly. AWS S3 will give you 429s before giving you 503s when you hit it with a go program touching every object or every version in a giant bucket from a 56 core machine and a few hundred Go routine workers. It is a good signal: if you do exponential back off per worker on the 429s, you won’t see the 503s.
nouveaux 4y ago
I think the actions here are meant to generate attention. Google is acting in bad faith and needs to be called out.
m4lvin 4y ago
I thought that too, but then sr.ht needs to keep state which IP made how many requests already, and as the post mentions google makes these requests from many different places. So they would have to count requests from the specific user agent and by that point it is again special purpose work and load on sr.ht (whereas general rate limiting per IP might be a good idea anyway).
- brnt 4y ago
  Per blogpost: > git clone requests with a GoModuleMirror User-Agent will receive a 429 So only one counter seems to be needed. Sure, it's doing work for an adversarial party, but it's not much extra work either.

alphazard 4y ago

Drew strikes me as very ideological, so it's refreshing to see a move this pragmatic. This has a better chance at bringing awareness to these issues, and resolving the crawler bullying than his usual antics.

calvinmorrison 4y ago

Doesn't sound like a pissing match: "Due to the relatively large traffic requirements of git clones, this represents about 70% of all outgoing network traffic from git.sr.ht. A single module can produce as much as 4 GiB of daily traffic from Google."

znpy 4y ago

The go language should probably be spun off to an independent non-profit foundation. Of course I’m well aware this is not going to happen.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]