6 ms·

In FAANG/larger companies they outline the management track and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is noth

by dotBen 4y ago

In FAANG/larger companies they outline the management track and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is nothing wrong or unusual with what you are wanting. The problem is those roles are harder to find and grow into in smaller and even medium companies. Eng pay tops out unless you gain management responsibilities whereas at those large companies they will pay staff engineers somewhat proportionately to managers. If your agency is the kind I think it is, the unit economics simply don't allow them to pay you above a certain rate for non management. There also won't be any significant career support. Research the staff engineer track and if it's something you want to pursue I would consider a move to a larger company into a staff engineer track role, where there are plenty of people who want to be a manager and you can let them right all those battles while you keep your head down and build. You may not be at staff engineer level right now but you will have a career path. My guess is you are also not being fairly compensated for your talents if you have developed this product line and are essentially the product owner as well. Even more reason to see if you can earn a lot more at a bigger company.

Jcampuzano2 4y ago
Worked at a consulting firm with just under 1k employees, when I started they only had like 40. At one point they had a meeting about creating a "technical track". I was in this meeting because I was interested in it. We went around for a while but they basically came back a couple weeks later saying that they don't have the resources to commit to having this track, and admitted they don't really know how it would be sustainable with our business model at the time, nor did they have anybody on the team who had experience with maintaining that kind of track and so it was killed. We did have the "stronger engineers" who occasionally may still get paid/compensated at a manager level even if they stayed at a slightly lower level not requiring management, but that was about it. They were also our "big hitters" when it came to putting them on the highest priority projects, and while by nature of consulting most of us were skilled in many different stacks, these people had a specialty that if a project came by that needed that skillset and was high visibility or priority, they were first pick to be on it. But you had to start managing if you wanted to continue to move up there. I actually ended up leaving because of this, even though they were honestly a great company.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is nothing wrong or unusual with what you are wanting. I could be wrong but it sounds like the OP doesn't even want to be a staff engineer (if my understanding of staff engineer is correct). https://davidxiang.com/2021/01/19/staff-software-engineer-responsibilities/ https://davidxiang.com/2021/01/19/staff-software-engineer-re... I'm pretty sure you're still expected to guide other engineers (co-workers/teammates), speak almost as a buffer with management, etc. If you want to be heads down coding and not dealing with people, I don't think staff engineer is the right track?
- bpicolo 4y ago
  Staff engineers are not a monolith. Software engineering is a huge discipline. There are staff engineers out there that do more architect/solver types of work. https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes In any case, leadership skills tend to go with the territory.
  - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
    > Staff engineers are not a monolith. In my experience, all it takes is your organization to go through one "re-structure", you randomly get a new manager one day, and they have a different expectation on what staff engineer means/should do. Next thing you know, you're being expected to stop architecting so much, spend more time mentoring interns who have never coded before and got hired randomly because ______. I wouldn't roll the dice that your job description/definition/expectations stay the same team to team, manager to manager, org to org, etc. I'd avoid "dancing" for the extra raise or whatever comes with being a staff engineer versus a regular senior engineer if you don't like dealing with people/having a lot expected out of you from a communication, presentation, human interaction standpoint.
    - monsieurbanana 4y ago
      I recently went through a "re-structure", and the result was a massive layoff, including Staff-level engineers. So I don't find that as a particularly compelling argument, your job description is never safe anyways.
bpicolo 4y ago
There are a ton of small/midsize startups that also split the tracks these days, at least in the USA
anthomtb 4y ago
Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track? I have worked at two Fortune 500 tech firms. They had separate career tracks where one was people management focused and the other nominally technical. At both firms the technical track was more like "technical management". None of the folks with high-level technical titles were committing code or doing hands on-technical work. The only difference with line management titles was less personnel responsibility. That is, on the technical track you would not generally need to deal with things like disgruntled employees, giving performance reports, sick time, etc. IOW, the technical track was a lot like being a tenured professor at a major university. You have intimate knowledge of the research happening and you help may design the experiments. But you are not the one who sits down and runs the experiments. I do not think the OP would be happy on a technical track in a major company, at least not as I have seen those tracks work. Rather, they would need to work with their line and project management such that they level out at a title where project leadership and decision making is not expected. Maybe that is what you mean by "staff engineer track." You get a Staff Engineer title (or Engineer 3, or Prinicpal or Senior - titles vary so much) and never get another promotion while still collecting merit increases and bonuses.
- ctvo 4y ago
  > Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track? The consensus around what a staff engineer is is mostly captured here: https://staffeng.com/guides/ https://staffeng.com/guides/ There's minor disagreements, but it's a good start. Ignore the book unless you feel compelled. It's a nice site to use to make sure we're all using the same terminology.

by dotBen 4y ago

Jcampuzano2 4y ago

Worked at a consulting firm with just under 1k employees, when I started they only had like 40. At one point they had a meeting about creating a "technical track". I was in this meeting because I was interested in it. We went around for a while but they basically came back a couple weeks later saying that they don't have the resources to commit to having this track, and admitted they don't really know how it would be sustainable with our business model at the time, nor did they have anybody on the team who had experience with maintaining that kind of track and so it was killed. We did have the "stronger engineers" who occasionally may still get paid/compensated at a manager level even if they stayed at a slightly lower level not requiring management, but that was about it. They were also our "big hitters" when it came to putting them on the highest priority projects, and while by nature of consulting most of us were skilled in many different stacks, these people had a specialty that if a project came by that needed that skillset and was high visibility or priority, they were first pick to be on it. But you had to start managing if you wanted to continue to move up there. I actually ended up leaving because of this, even though they were honestly a great company.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> and the staff engineer track. It sounds like you simply want to do the latter - so no, there is nothing wrong or unusual with what you are wanting. I could be wrong but it sounds like the OP doesn't even want to be a staff engineer (if my understanding of staff engineer is correct). https://davidxiang.com/2021/01/19/staff-software-engineer-responsibilities/ https://davidxiang.com/2021/01/19/staff-software-engineer-re... I'm pretty sure you're still expected to guide other engineers (co-workers/teammates), speak almost as a buffer with management, etc. If you want to be heads down coding and not dealing with people, I don't think staff engineer is the right track?

bpicolo 4y ago
Staff engineers are not a monolith. Software engineering is a huge discipline. There are staff engineers out there that do more architect/solver types of work. https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes In any case, leadership skills tend to go with the territory.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  > Staff engineers are not a monolith. In my experience, all it takes is your organization to go through one "re-structure", you randomly get a new manager one day, and they have a different expectation on what staff engineer means/should do. Next thing you know, you're being expected to stop architecting so much, spend more time mentoring interns who have never coded before and got hired randomly because ______. I wouldn't roll the dice that your job description/definition/expectations stay the same team to team, manager to manager, org to org, etc. I'd avoid "dancing" for the extra raise or whatever comes with being a staff engineer versus a regular senior engineer if you don't like dealing with people/having a lot expected out of you from a communication, presentation, human interaction standpoint.
  - monsieurbanana 4y ago
    I recently went through a "re-structure", and the result was a massive layoff, including Staff-level engineers. So I don't find that as a particularly compelling argument, your job description is never safe anyways.

bpicolo 4y ago

There are a ton of small/midsize startups that also split the tracks these days, at least in the USA

anthomtb 4y ago

Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track? I have worked at two Fortune 500 tech firms. They had separate career tracks where one was people management focused and the other nominally technical. At both firms the technical track was more like "technical management". None of the folks with high-level technical titles were committing code or doing hands on-technical work. The only difference with line management titles was less personnel responsibility. That is, on the technical track you would not generally need to deal with things like disgruntled employees, giving performance reports, sick time, etc. IOW, the technical track was a lot like being a tenured professor at a major university. You have intimate knowledge of the research happening and you help may design the experiments. But you are not the one who sits down and runs the experiments. I do not think the OP would be happy on a technical track in a major company, at least not as I have seen those tracks work. Rather, they would need to work with their line and project management such that they level out at a title where project leadership and decision making is not expected. Maybe that is what you mean by "staff engineer track." You get a Staff Engineer title (or Engineer 3, or Prinicpal or Senior - titles vary so much) and never get another promotion while still collecting merit increases and bonuses.

ctvo 4y ago
> Where did you learn about this "staff engineer" track? The consensus around what a staff engineer is is mostly captured here: https://staffeng.com/guides/ https://staffeng.com/guides/ There's minor disagreements, but it's a good start. Ignore the book unless you feel compelled. It's a nice site to use to make sure we're all using the same terminology.