11 ms·

The organ as a wind instrument

68 points by fipar 4y ago

skybrian 4y ago
The number of reeds in an accordion multiplies in a similar way, plus you need a reed for pushing and pulling if you want the same sound in both directions. A full-sized accordion typically has four sets of treble reeds, though three is also common and there are a few with five.
cptcobalt 4y ago
The pipe organ is surely one of the most majestic & grand instruments, and I long for the day its most frequent use won't be drab church hymns. It's capable of so much more. It's also difficult to get exposure to. You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs. That's not easy, especially as a queer self-taught musician—no religion, no music degree won't get you too far. It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.)
- rwmj 4y ago
  The sound track of Interstellar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack)
  - cptcobalt 4y ago
    Basically, the exception which proves the rule. I sincerely doubt most folks could name other titles which prominently feature organ as a focal instrument in a work. There's more, of course, but Interstellar tends to be people's first example.
    - rwmj 4y ago
      Quite a few according to this list: https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ The Abominable Dr. Phibes is an absolute classic.
    - adql 4y ago
      * Warhammer 40k Mechanicus OST - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vYnTLQ77f5EmLoW52vIX5jAAK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vY... * A bit on that on IXION one by same author https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ althought more on synth side Also kinda many tracks by organ's tiny brother, hammond/tonehweel organs seen plenty of use for the obvious reason of being portable.
    - tzs 4y ago
      Theme from Rollerball [1]? [1] Yes, I know it is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, but cptcobalt said "name" not "recognize", and while a vast majority have probably heard Toccata and Fugue in D Minor I'd guess most of them don't know that is its name. They will name it after somewhere they heard it used. Similar to Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra. Everyone has heard it but I bet most people would name it as the theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
    - wl 4y ago
      Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33
    - tgv 4y ago
      Well, if you like classical music ... there are some organ concertos. There's e.g. a modern-ish one by Poulenc (but melodic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0), and a romantic one by Saint-Saens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI), and there are baroque organ concertos by Handel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1uG2eAAArt43lTUMjxdMX4oD1Z2zAMk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1u...).
    - ginko 4y ago
      There's of course In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA Plenty of other stuff if you look for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTEMbywwK9gpqJ0-t2ra4WIzd8Ot3YLog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTE... Not to mention the tons and tons of secular Classical music, particular from the Baroque era like Händel's organ concertos.
      - recursive 4y ago
        In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida definitely doesn't have a pipe organ. It's a vox or farfisa.
        toast0 4y ago
        Sounds pretty nice on a church organ though; in high school, I played in the orchestra for honors district graduation at the Crystal Cathedral[1], and the organist would play some riffs during rehearsal. [1] Now renamed as the Christ Cathedral, I assume it's still amazingly hot and stuffy when the sun comes out, ugh, what a terrible venue. :P
        fipar 4y ago
        Yup, it seems that was a Vox Continental: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental
    - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
      Rollerball.
    - booknotefinder 4y ago
      Kali Malone’s “The Sacrificial Code” is my favorite musical find of the last year, and is entirely on pipe organ. Very mysterious and meditative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro For a midcentury, modal, classical bent, I love the music of Rayner Brown, who was a church organist in Pasadena. Recordings are rare but worth it to track down. There are a few good examples on YouTube; here’s one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY In that same vein, Leo Sowerby: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4
    - jgraham 4y ago
      Anna von Hausswolff [1] performs "pop" music on the organ. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        On that note: Barbara Dennerlein.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I think that's just because it is recent. But there is plenty more.
    - balfirevic 4y ago
      > Basically, the exception which proves the rule. Exception can only weaken the rule, although it might still statistically hold well enough to be called a rule.
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  As an amateur pianist trying to learn organ specifically to play "drab" church hymns, I can say that while I admire the complexity and scope of the organ, At the same time, I don't find the organ particularly interesting musically. I just don't think it "sounds" great. I think this explains the lack of popularity of organ more than anything else. In my free time, I would much rather listen to piano music than organ music. I remember even recently finding a new pianist I liked who also played the organ, and I simply didn't like his organ tracks. > You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point?
  - IanCal 4y ago
    > No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point? I think its reasonable to be both happy these things exist at all, and are available to some for free rather than in extremely expensive private collections, while also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. We can easily take this to an extreme as an analogy where it would seem more reasonable to you to hear the complaint. The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score.
    - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
      > While also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. Can you go into more detail as to these exclusionary practices? All organizations, all things really, are defined by both what they include and what they exclude. Nothing is fully inclusive, else that thing would have no meaning! To be more concrete, How, were churches more exclusionary than other private or civic organizations of their times? When we judge the history of something, we really need to judge it in proper context, including by comparing to the society at large within the same time frame. On the whole, Christianity can be argued to be one of the most inclusive religions ever. It would have to be, else it couldn't have spread across the world like it did! > The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to be conveying, really. It's point is far too banal to be a nugget of wisdom. It's more like a clump of dirt of wisdom! The world isn't perfect? Thanks for the reminder! But we all have a choice as to how we interpret our world, and I'm suggesting that the primary emotion or feeling an organist should have towards churches is one of gratitude, at least while we're staying on topic and talking about organs.
- adql 4y ago
  > It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. I'm pretty sure there is no loop here, just "you need that much money to play". Not exactly something easy to fit in the house either > (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.) From what I heard simulated ones get pretty close
- bluGill 4y ago
  There is a small group of people who have built their own console with "multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers". I've been meaning to do that myself, but time is lacking. With software and good speakers you can probably get the reverberant room as well, though to my knowledge this hasn't been done yet.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Yeah, it really does seem like you can bodge something like this together with reasonable fidelity out of off the shelf stuff, starting with 3-4 synthesizer keyboards and a few pedals. Of course, that's no small expense right there already, and I'm sure this is one of those things that can get arbitrarily expensive as well, depending on that level of fidelity you're after.
  - squidbot 4y ago
    There's a lot of people using Hauptwerk (virtual organ) for this and assembling their own consoles. Here is an organist on YouTube who shows his whole build process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItBk8xIGaCCGCqtnVeouEXYG-D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItB...
- mh7 4y ago
  I don't see a way around that - Organs are inherently rare because of their size, cost, locations and maintenance requirements. Unless someone finds a way of scaling up production and/or reducing the cost, you're not gonna see organs popping up everywhere, hence limited access.
- jfk13 4y ago
  This being Hacker News, you could consider Knuth's approach: have one built for your home. https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html
  - dang 4y ago
    Alan Kay too I think! "Play it grand"
  - mustacheemperor 4y ago
    Or the similar approach of the guy from This Museum is Not Obsolete, buy an entire Church organ secondhand and retrofit it into your home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      That's another level entirely :) Wow...
- darreninthenet 4y ago
  I don't want to be "that guy" but a mate of mine is the music director is in his local church here in the UK, plays the organ and piano, is mostly self taught and is also gay... he's even going to be teaching me to play the organ later on this year (and I'm joining his choir for a bit of fun... he also knows I'm not religious at all and in his own words "faith is not a requirement") All I'm saying is you just need to find the right church and person... most people will happily share their passions with equally passionate beginners, and churches are crying out for organ players, they are a dying breed.
  - tigerlily 4y ago
    It's not even weird and I'm on the other side of the world. I know at least one gay organist in my town, and over half my local church choir are unbelievers. Most do it for the repertoire and keeping their pipes in good nick for their real passion: musical theatre.
    - conductr 4y ago
      Also here to say "queer self-taught musician" describes every church music director I've ever known (3)
      - thinkmcfly 4y ago
        I'm not gonna brush off the idea that it's tough as a gay person or someone who thinks gay people have the right to exist to get in with a crowd that often thinks lgtbq people deserve to die
  - jtbayly 4y ago
    Gay organists are common enough to be a trope.
- allthetime 4y ago
  In a way, the entire room is the instrument. How cool is that.
- tgv 4y ago
  I've got a second hand organ (trademark "Content", but there are more) at home with two manuals and (almost full) pedal. They're not expensive. There are three and four manual versions too. More than good enough to learn and practice. And no mistake: professional organists use these too, since practicing at a real organ is hard for them, too. Many (smaller) churches use similar organs instead of pipe organs, because of the economics. > they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room They're near perfect recordings with all the features, e.g. https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam-laurenskerk-main-organ.html https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam... If you want to hear what people play on their home setup: https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- temporarara 4y ago
  Hey, just contact your local church music director. You don't even have to become close friends, just explain politely that you would be super grateful to have access to organs. Most of the time things can be arranged if you or the music director aren't obnoxius persons. Being a queer or self-taught musician with no degree is of no interest for anyone involved in this kind of arrangement. I'd assume not being a member of the said church is the biggest obstacle you can reasonably have here, and it can be non-issue too, especially if you are not hoping to instantly gain regular access. Don't be an ass about your lack of religion and hope that they are not an ass about having a religion. I know a few music directors in churches and they are definitely not very religious and it's mostly just a job for them and they are always eager to talk about organs to everyone interested, of course things vary a lot. One must also understand that giving access to expensive instrument that isn't even their own like organs (especially unsupervised) requires high trust and sometimes it's just too much to ask even if you are a lifelong member of the said church. But asking is cheap, don't hesitate to contact your local church music director(s) if you are seriously interested.
- GeompMankle 4y ago
  If you are in the states and having trouble getting access to church organs, find your local theatre organ club or ATOS chapter. Most of them have some form of access to theatre pipe organs and if you learn on a theatre organ you will be able to transition to a less diverse and more refined beast like a church instrument. It also helps to not be in a high cost of living area. The lower the cost of living, the lower the cost of auditorium space. The lower the cost of auditorium space, the easier it is to get access to organs (to a point).
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Have a look at the high end electronic organs, they are pretty good (and also pretty expensive, but still a small fraction of what the real thing would cost). Mixtuur, Johannus, van der Poel and quite a few others will give you the opportunity to play and practice to your hearts content and typically a 50 euro donation to the church will get you a 1/2 hour (sometimes more) to play on the real thing if and when you feel you are ready for that (and if you're really good they might get you to become their stand-in organist). On the cheap end: you can build your own, which is what I did, I converted a really old analogue organ that I bought for next to nothing into a sample based organ running Grand Orgue, it's not quite Hauptwerk but it is very good and sounds amazing, much more organ than I'm worthy of. Total cost: about 500 euros.
- martinjacobd 4y ago
  If you're in the US, you may want to try to find an episcopal church. They seem to be liturgically conservative enough to still have organs but are generally socially liberal enough to be more accepting. Ymmv, obviously. But I will say that personally in years of playing the organ and asking random churches (including conservative ones) if I could borrow their organs on a quiet weekday, my bisexuality has never come up. And I didn't have to be friends with the choir director either. Once, I attended one Mass and just went up to him afterwards to thank him for playing (it was beautiful) and ask if I could ever practice with it. I know it's different from many places as I'm in a big city, but at least four organists whom I've known personally are gay. Many churches don't even require you to be religious even to be employed to play the organ there. Randomly on an airplane, I spoke with an atheist music professor who was choir director/organist at a congregationalist church. They didn't seem to care. So I doubt it'd be a big deal if you just want to practice. The choir director at my current (liberal) parish never takes Communion--I don't know if he is personally religious one way or the other, but it seems to be little more than a job to him. Also, you should try to find some churches where there is more than just "drab church hymns." 20th and even 21st century voluntaries, anthems, and choral preludes are alive and well in certain segments of Christendom. See for instance the churches that Bálint Karosi plays in. I doubt you'd describe his music as "drab." My parish runs the gamut from Palestrina to something from the 20th century at least every Sunday. Just my 2 cents.
  - AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
    I once asked a church choir director: how many people in a typical choir do really believe in god. His answer was: zero. As for the priest - he said - it's more like a coin flip: some of them are still religious.
    - jacobmartin 4y ago
      Triply so if the choir is a professional choir. It's a job. They don't ask you the Creed before you audition.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  I mean I wouldnt look at this like organs are somehow gatekept : theyre just fucking expensive so you have to get in with the institutions that own them to be able to play em.
- topaz0 4y ago
  Calling the organ rep "drab church hymns" is an unfortunately common misunderstanding. Both because the hymns can be beautiful and varied (both in compositional and performance style -- registration, improvised counterpoint, etc), and because there is a lot more beyond hymns: hundreds of years worth of preludes and fugues, toccatas, concerti, organ symphonies, and various other forms. Most of the placed I've lived, I've been able to find a nearby church that does a (secular) concert/recital series that often features the organ. Try finding one of those if you are interested. As for getting access to an instrument, I second others who have replied to you: many of the organists I've encountered were queer in some way or other (though mostly gay men by far), and the rest of them were well aware and understanding that many of their peers and teachers were gay. I think if you reach out to a church organist they will likely be understanding and helpful.
- sambapa 4y ago
  There is this thing called "Organteq". It's made by mad scientists (well, mathematicians and engineers) from France and is based on physical modelling. Look it up, it's great!
  - elihu 4y ago
    Also Hauptwerk, or if you prefer something open source there's GrandOrgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Oh super I did not realize they have a linux version of Organteq, I will definitely have to try that. I've used Grand Orgue so far and that works quite well, but I am a very happy user of Pianoteq (you can guess what that does) and Modartt has definitely raised the bar there, so I'm curious what they can do with Organs (arguably: easier to model in theory but probably a lot harder in practice).
- dylan604 4y ago
  You mean like the best use I've seen being from the Simpsons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI
- noyoudumbdolt 4y ago
  I bet half the organists at Catholic churches are gay.
rwmj 4y ago
Anna Lapwood demonstrating the features of a pipe organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzK-tYFGQx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzK-tYFGQx4 Edit: Although she didn't explain how they "programme" the buttons. Presumably by adjusting something in the guts of the organ.
- packetslave 4y ago
  Anna's great! Last year she played the Royal Albert Hall organ at a Bonobo electronic music concert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyAF9M3XVw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyAF9M3XVw
- frosted-flakes 4y ago
  It's all computer-controlled, so the programming is probably done with a computer or a built-in digital interface.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Not necessarily on all organs though, there are still some all mechanical ones that are alive and well!
- matttpt 4y ago
  The system for storing and recalling stop combinations ("registrations") is called a combination action [0]. On a modern instrument, it's generally built with electronics, including a solid-state memory. It's also user-programmable. Usually, this is done through a "set" button: the organist holds down the set button and then simultaneously presses the button ("piston") that they want to program. The current state of all the stops that the piston controls is saved, and can then be recalled later by pressing the piston again. On many instruments, the combination action features multiple "memory levels" (possibly hundreds!). Each memory level is an independent copy of the settings for all the user-programmable pistons, so e.g. the "general 1" piston can be programmed to recall one registration on memory level 1 and a different registration on memory level 2. There's usually an LED display or screen that shows the active memory level (they're named numerically), with accompanying buttons to increase and decrease it. Generally, on a shared instrument (e.g. at a music school or large church), an organist will be assigned a range of memory levels for their own use. Some combination actions even have a "lock" feature that makes a memory level read-only until it's explicitly unlocked, which helps prevent one organist from clobbering another's registrations if they accidentally punch in the wrong memory level. Some older instruments (built before electronics) also have combination actions with varying designs and degrees of flexibility. I don't know much about them, but the Wikipedia link overviews some of them. Indeed, older systems often need to be set in the "guts of the organ." They might even require an organ builder to come configure them. Some organs (e.g. small instruments, Baroque-era instruments, and modern instruments built in certain historical styles) don't have combination actions at all. In that case, all stops must be moved manually, either by the organist or by a helper ("registrant") or two. It can take time to get used to playing while a helper on either side of you manipulates the stops. It can also be nerve-wracking to be a registrant, knowing that if you lose your place in the music, you might mess up your colleague's performance! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_(organ)#Combination_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_(organ)#Combinati...
fredley 4y ago
If you want to learn more about pipe organs from a completely different viewpoint, this series where a pipe organ is gradually rebuilt by an extremely talented and enthusiastic amateur is great fun! LOOK MUM NO COMPUTER - I BOUGHT A WHOLE CHURCH ORGAN - Part 1: The Organ Removal https://youtu.be/8PwwRR8deHk https://youtu.be/8PwwRR8deHk
- uuddlrlrbaba 4y ago
  Came here to plug this. It was a great watch, and hearing a classic pipe organ connected to a midi arpeggiator is so cool Also, he builds his own midi interface for the pipe organ (iirc with arduino), which is quite a cool thing to watch. And realizing that the mechanics of it all are fundamentally simple, but complex due to being repeated on a physically massive scale
the_other 4y ago
I discovered Sarah Davachi[0] via the excellent Why We Bleep podcast[1] recently. She makes interesting music, often using organs. [0]: https://www.sarahdavachi.com https://www.sarahdavachi.com [1]: https://www.whywebleep.com/whywebleep/ https://www.whywebleep.com/whywebleep/
sporkl 4y ago
If anyone’s curious to experiment with the different kinds of stops, the FOSS Aeolus VST plugin is pretty good https://github.com/Archie3d/aeolus_plugin https://github.com/Archie3d/aeolus_plugin
mikeyouse 4y ago
I went to a small, vaguely religious, liberal arts school and one of my classmates who I didn't know well but was friendly with was heading to medical school after college. During our graduation ceremonies, he surprised most by leaving the student section and taking his seat behind the organ at the church our ceremony was in and just slayed the ivories (are organ keys called ivories?). It was phenomenal. After the official program, he was just messing around playing popular music and shooting the shit with everyone for another hour or two. It turned out he was a biochem major, chemistry & liturgical organ minor. Pipe organs seem like such magical instruments, I'm always shocked when I meet someone who can play one.
falcolas 4y ago
Also of interest: Wurlitzer Organs. Their biggest difference is the addition of non-wind instruments, and intentional vibrato added to the wind instruments. They were originally used to provide music and sound effects for silent movies and plays. There's one in Scottsdale, AZ that's a lot of fun to visit in person (there are YouTube videos of it too). Organ Stop Pizza
- fipar 4y ago
  Yes! Adding to what you said, Wendy Carlos has an interesting writeup on her MIDI "Wurlitzer": https://www.wendycarlos.com/wurlynew/ https://www.wendycarlos.com/wurlynew/, and the "Historical Roots" section mentions the use in silent movies.
jvolkman 4y ago
Mostly unrelated to wind instruments: I always thought motorcycles and musical instruments came from the same Yamaha, but apparently they split back in 1955. Interesting that after almost 70 years both companies are still using the same logo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Motor_Company#Beginnings:_1955 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Motor_Company#Beginning...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- damon_c 4y ago
  from that page listing the owners of Yamaha Motor Company: > The Master Trust Bank of Japan (11.82%) > Yamaha Corporation (9.91%) > Toyota (3.58%) I guess that ownership stake smooths some things out.
emersonrsantos 4y ago
There's a software that I used to emulate a pipe organ (and also harpsichords). I used it for years and it has a library with a lot of historical organs around the world: https://www.hauptwerk.com https://www.hauptwerk.com, as far as I know this is the only commercially supported PC/Mac software dedicated to this.
- packetslave 4y ago
  There are quite a few high-quality sampled pipe organs out there, most of which run in Native Instruments' Kontakt sampler software. My personal favorites are the RAH (https://www.royalalberthallorgan.com/ https://www.royalalberthallorgan.com/) and the Rugby and Union Chapel organs from Spitfire Audio (https://www.spitfireaudio.com/symphonic-organ https://www.spitfireaudio.com/symphonic-organ)
  - tgv 4y ago
    Hauptwerk beats Kontakt in this department, I'm afraid. Certainly the latter two can't compare to the full-featured models that are on offer for Hauptwerk, which include wind models for tremulants and all. If you're not after trying out all registrations, but just want the sound, Kontakt is good enough.
    - packetslave 4y ago
      oh, sure. Hauptwerk is definitely the way to go if you want the "real organ" experience, since it can also do multiple manuals, pedals, etc. Me, I just want to rattle peoples' teeth with the RAH's virtual 32' reed stops. :-)
- billfruit 4y ago
  There also seems to be this: https://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/ https://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/
- severak_cz 4y ago
  Or you can use open source Grand Orgue. I am using it with default sound set and it sounds good enough for me. https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue
odyssey7 4y ago
For an alternate implementation, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stalacpipe_Organ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stalacpipe_Organ
- pikminguy 4y ago
  I've seen the Stalacpipe in person and it's honestly underwhelming. The idea is neat but it doesn't really work in practice. The stalactites are so quiet and the "organ" covers such a large area that it's pretty much impossible to hear the whole thing without amplification.
mauvehaus 4y ago
I went down the rabbit hole on pipe organs some years back when a school I was working at didn't have working bells (ridiculous, I know) or synchronized clocks. The simplest organ pipe is basically a big-ass whistle. Besides the metal ones you see front and center, there are also wooden ones that are typically square in cross section and have a block and labium exactly like the recorder you may have been forced to play in elementary school. A recorder is basically a whistle with some extra holes so it can play different notes. I got as far as building the pipe, buying a thrift-shop vacuum cleaner, hooking the hose out to the output end, scrounging the circuit board out of an extra USB keyboard and soldering a solid-state relay in place of the scroll lock LED (inspired by the bit in Cryptonomicon where the protagonist uses a keyboard LED as a Morse code output), and starting to hack some code together to turn the vacuum cleaner (via the keyboard/relay) on and off on a schedule before I decided that I wasn't going to become a teacher after all. I never did hook it all up. All this to say: getting a single note instrument that makes some kind of noise and isn't tuned is ridiculously easy if you don't care about the noise you make creating the required airflow and don't involve a computer.
daverol 4y ago
Instrument or spectacle? <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KYMpBx9og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KYMpBx9og>
GeompMankle 4y ago
Although most organ music played for liturgical or academic reasons is terrifyingly boring, there is a decent contingent of symphonic and "theatre" (yes -re) organ people who want something that moves us and maybe erodes some of the concrete work elsewhere in building. Misc tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzpQHz2dGX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzpQHz2dGX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VN5DGw3OvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VN5DGw3OvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_vvBuH2ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_vvBuH2ts Also, even some of the classical works from folks like Ravel, Liszt and particularly have some ball busters if played on a big machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrwazpZvAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrwazpZvAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3cZ-7-IoI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3cZ-7-IoI . TLDR: the folks that want to hear organs sound good go find other people that want to hear organs sound good and we have conventions and listen to organs sounding good.
- User23 4y ago
  I can't imagine finding Bach terrifyingly boring. I'm practically tone deaf and I can still perceive the rich structure of the music.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Although most organ music played for liturgical or academic reasons is terrifyingly boring Huh?
  - GeompMankle 4y ago
    I generalized. To be specific, the interesting part of liturgical and most classical organ music requires an advanced understanding of harmony and nuance that the typical average citizen of the Earth will rarely accumulate the hundreds to thousands of hours that it takes to appreciate in context. For most people, it's like watching 2700 ELO chess masters play without a commentator: hard to appreciate. On the other hand, for me organs are really fun to listen to so I will put up with classical and liturgical music even if it kind of puts me to sleep and because I've listened to it enough that I can deal. Frankly, sometimes the best part of the typical liturgical organ experience is during the time they are tuning the organ before the audience arrives. I can listen to individual pipes beating against each other and the tuning process a lot longer than I can handle something like Jean Guillou's Improvisations for Christmas. More power to the folks who can stomach classical organ music though. You guys pay the bills for the rest of us who want to hear melodies we recognized. However, the organ (particular symphonic organ and theatre variants) are frankly pretty adept at translations of music that is rhythmically and familiar to popular music trends of the last 60 years. In this case, the listener doesn't have to be nearly as intimately familiar with the trends of music between the 1700s and before the date their grandparents were born.
college_physics 4y ago
Not sure how widespread knowledge this is but the organ has an amazingly long history, starting at least 200 bc. [0]. They were using a water mechanism to smooth the air pressure [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulis_of_Dion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulis_of_Dion
a4isms 4y ago
Completely tangential anecdote: --- At one point, a little software business/hustle of mine had run its course, and I needed some steady income while I figured out my next move, so I got a job as a retail computer salesperson. The store was located in Toronto's financial district, and we got a lot of lawyers, bankers, accountants, &c. buying computers and software, which we sold in boxes. Those days are long gone, of course. One day, some of my colleagues were snickering to each other, and when I asked "What's up," they giggled and told me there was a customer who was asking for me. I was the only employee who owned a Mac, and my colleagues took great delight in sending me Apple customers. Well, to digress, if a customer was asking about a laser printer for their Mac, my colleagues would ask me for my help, but keep the sale and its commission for themselves. But f a customer wanted a box of 3.5" floppies for their Mac, my colleagues thought it was great fun referring the sale to me out of teh good ness of their hearts. This was another "goodness of their hearts" referral, for as I approached the customer, I realized at once that there was a personal hygiene thing going on. The customer was also dressed in a very shabby attire relative to the business norms of the 90s, and had trouble making eye contact. Once I realized this was a prank referral, I resolved not to let them get my goat, so I played it straight, treating them as I would any lawyer in a power suit shopping for a half dozen PCs to automate their office. The customer was browsing development tools, and so I asked if they wrote software. I was told they did, but I hadn't heard of anything they wrote. "Why ever not," I asked. "Oh, I write software for pipe organs," was the reply, "It's a very small industry, and if you know who the major manufacturers are, you probably already know who I am." The customer actually worked on contract for some European manufacturers, and personal habits aside, was the real deal. After answering a number of questions about text editors—Anybody else remember when it was commonplace to pay big money for an editor? We still do pay for some editors, but it doesn't seem to be a common thing any more, thanks to OSS—the customer spend maybe $700 on tools as they were upgrading their entire development setup. I never saw them again, but I have also never forgotten that our industry has many, many "niches" that can support independent contractors or even entire businesses. It's not all FAANGs. --- And that's my pipe organ software story.
temporal_123 4y ago
You can build your own Pipe Organ emulator, using a raspberry Pi, Linux, Arduino and 3d printed parts. See: https://openpipes.org https://openpipes.org
throwaway0b1 4y ago
As someone who is both an organ nerd and... I'll say very religiously conservative (although that's only relevant to some points), a couple things people in this thread might find interesting: - If you're looking for pipe organs and are in the US, check out https://pipeorgandatabase.org/ https://pipeorgandatabase.org/ . It's very comprehensive, has stoplists for most organs, and has pictures for many of the larger ones. - I see quite a few people calling organ music boring, particularly in association with church music, and I'd like to challenge that assumption. Off the top of my head, a handful of things that come to mind: (1) Hymns are meant to be sung with, usually by people who are not trained singers. That leads to significant limitations for the accompaniment. That said, there is a lot more variation in preludes, postludes, etc. (2) Organ is hard. Being able to play boring hymns well with a week or two of preparation can easily take 2-3 years of daily practice, even with previous background on piano. (3) Many recordings fail to capture the full magnitude of organ music. To repeat something that I think is a bit oversaid, but is accurate nonetheless: the building is the instrument. The building is the instrument. (4) One thing that it's hard for me to tell is how much of the difference of opinion is that I have unusual tastes in music, and how much is that a lot of people haven't had the opportunity to hear good organ music played by a good organist. (5) Yes, you can be expressive on organ. Yes, it's hard. Depending on the song (and the composition itself plays a big role here - don't think that a composer can't be expressive) that may come across in rubato, opening/closing the swell box (and potentially others), articulation, manual changes, etc. (I've heard just a few pieces with people one foot on the swell pedal for most of the song. They were very impressive, although I suppose a lot of that comes from the perspective of an organist. It's also very hard. See point 2.) Also: (6) Choosing registration in and of itself is kind of an art (and a lot of fun, especially on big organs). There are so many different timbres you can get on an organ that it's really beyond comparison to most other instruments; using this alone it's easy to express everything from mournful to bombastic fanfare. That became more of a jumbled mess than I intended, but hopefully there's something of interest to some of you.
- throwaway0b1 4y ago
  Also: I have easy access to a few pipe organs (mostly small, but not all of them), so if anyone has questions feel free to ask; general organ questions are also welcome, of course.
organman91 4y ago
In addition to being thought of as a wind or keyboard instrument, there's another component to all pipe organs that makes each of them unique in a way (almost) no other instrument is - the room they are installed in. With very rare exceptions, pipe organs aren't mobile, so the acoustics of the room matter almost as much as the pipes do. Here's Rob Scallon exploring the largest pipe organ in the midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeB3JnKp8To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeB3JnKp8To Here's a more in depth look at all the sounds of that same organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1S42E1BW9w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1S42E1BW9w - this channel has documented a number of organs over the years.

68 points by fipar 4y ago

The number of reeds in an accordion multiplies in a similar way, plus you need a reed for pushing and pulling if you want the same sound in both directions. A full-sized accordion typically has four sets of treble reeds, though three is also common and there are a few with five.

cptcobalt 4y ago

The pipe organ is surely one of the most majestic & grand instruments, and I long for the day its most frequent use won't be drab church hymns. It's capable of so much more. It's also difficult to get exposure to. You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs. That's not easy, especially as a queer self-taught musician—no religion, no music degree won't get you too far. It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.)

rwmj 4y ago
The sound track of Interstellar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack)
- cptcobalt 4y ago
  Basically, the exception which proves the rule. I sincerely doubt most folks could name other titles which prominently feature organ as a focal instrument in a work. There's more, of course, but Interstellar tends to be people's first example.
  - rwmj 4y ago
    Quite a few according to this list: https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ The Abominable Dr. Phibes is an absolute classic.
  - adql 4y ago
    * Warhammer 40k Mechanicus OST - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vYnTLQ77f5EmLoW52vIX5jAAK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vY... * A bit on that on IXION one by same author https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ althought more on synth side Also kinda many tracks by organ's tiny brother, hammond/tonehweel organs seen plenty of use for the obvious reason of being portable.
  - tzs 4y ago
    Theme from Rollerball [1]? [1] Yes, I know it is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, but cptcobalt said "name" not "recognize", and while a vast majority have probably heard Toccata and Fugue in D Minor I'd guess most of them don't know that is its name. They will name it after somewhere they heard it used. Similar to Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra. Everyone has heard it but I bet most people would name it as the theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
  - wl 4y ago
    Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33
  - tgv 4y ago
    Well, if you like classical music ... there are some organ concertos. There's e.g. a modern-ish one by Poulenc (but melodic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0), and a romantic one by Saint-Saens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI), and there are baroque organ concertos by Handel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1uG2eAAArt43lTUMjxdMX4oD1Z2zAMk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1u...).
  - ginko 4y ago
    There's of course In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA Plenty of other stuff if you look for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTEMbywwK9gpqJ0-t2ra4WIzd8Ot3YLog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTE... Not to mention the tons and tons of secular Classical music, particular from the Baroque era like Händel's organ concertos.
    - recursive 4y ago
      In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida definitely doesn't have a pipe organ. It's a vox or farfisa.
      - toast0 4y ago
        Sounds pretty nice on a church organ though; in high school, I played in the orchestra for honors district graduation at the Crystal Cathedral[1], and the organist would play some riffs during rehearsal. [1] Now renamed as the Christ Cathedral, I assume it's still amazingly hot and stuffy when the sun comes out, ugh, what a terrible venue. :P
      - fipar 4y ago
        Yup, it seems that was a Vox Continental: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental
  - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
    Rollerball.
  - booknotefinder 4y ago
    Kali Malone’s “The Sacrificial Code” is my favorite musical find of the last year, and is entirely on pipe organ. Very mysterious and meditative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro For a midcentury, modal, classical bent, I love the music of Rayner Brown, who was a church organist in Pasadena. Recordings are rare but worth it to track down. There are a few good examples on YouTube; here’s one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY In that same vein, Leo Sowerby: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4
  - jgraham 4y ago
    Anna von Hausswolff [1] performs "pop" music on the organ. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      On that note: Barbara Dennerlein.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I think that's just because it is recent. But there is plenty more.
  - balfirevic 4y ago
    > Basically, the exception which proves the rule. Exception can only weaken the rule, although it might still statistically hold well enough to be called a rule.
PathOfEclipse 4y ago
As an amateur pianist trying to learn organ specifically to play "drab" church hymns, I can say that while I admire the complexity and scope of the organ, At the same time, I don't find the organ particularly interesting musically. I just don't think it "sounds" great. I think this explains the lack of popularity of organ more than anything else. In my free time, I would much rather listen to piano music than organ music. I remember even recently finding a new pianist I liked who also played the organ, and I simply didn't like his organ tracks. > You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point?
- IanCal 4y ago
  > No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point? I think its reasonable to be both happy these things exist at all, and are available to some for free rather than in extremely expensive private collections, while also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. We can easily take this to an extreme as an analogy where it would seem more reasonable to you to hear the complaint. The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score.
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    > While also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. Can you go into more detail as to these exclusionary practices? All organizations, all things really, are defined by both what they include and what they exclude. Nothing is fully inclusive, else that thing would have no meaning! To be more concrete, How, were churches more exclusionary than other private or civic organizations of their times? When we judge the history of something, we really need to judge it in proper context, including by comparing to the society at large within the same time frame. On the whole, Christianity can be argued to be one of the most inclusive religions ever. It would have to be, else it couldn't have spread across the world like it did! > The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to be conveying, really. It's point is far too banal to be a nugget of wisdom. It's more like a clump of dirt of wisdom! The world isn't perfect? Thanks for the reminder! But we all have a choice as to how we interpret our world, and I'm suggesting that the primary emotion or feeling an organist should have towards churches is one of gratitude, at least while we're staying on topic and talking about organs.
adql 4y ago
> It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. I'm pretty sure there is no loop here, just "you need that much money to play". Not exactly something easy to fit in the house either > (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.) From what I heard simulated ones get pretty close
bluGill 4y ago
There is a small group of people who have built their own console with "multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers". I've been meaning to do that myself, but time is lacking. With software and good speakers you can probably get the reverberant room as well, though to my knowledge this hasn't been done yet.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Yeah, it really does seem like you can bodge something like this together with reasonable fidelity out of off the shelf stuff, starting with 3-4 synthesizer keyboards and a few pedals. Of course, that's no small expense right there already, and I'm sure this is one of those things that can get arbitrarily expensive as well, depending on that level of fidelity you're after.
- squidbot 4y ago
  There's a lot of people using Hauptwerk (virtual organ) for this and assembling their own consoles. Here is an organist on YouTube who shows his whole build process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItBk8xIGaCCGCqtnVeouEXYG-D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItB...
mh7 4y ago
I don't see a way around that - Organs are inherently rare because of their size, cost, locations and maintenance requirements. Unless someone finds a way of scaling up production and/or reducing the cost, you're not gonna see organs popping up everywhere, hence limited access.
jfk13 4y ago
This being Hacker News, you could consider Knuth's approach: have one built for your home. https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html
- dang 4y ago
  Alan Kay too I think! "Play it grand"
- mustacheemperor 4y ago
  Or the similar approach of the guy from This Museum is Not Obsolete, buy an entire Church organ secondhand and retrofit it into your home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    That's another level entirely :) Wow...
darreninthenet 4y ago
I don't want to be "that guy" but a mate of mine is the music director is in his local church here in the UK, plays the organ and piano, is mostly self taught and is also gay... he's even going to be teaching me to play the organ later on this year (and I'm joining his choir for a bit of fun... he also knows I'm not religious at all and in his own words "faith is not a requirement") All I'm saying is you just need to find the right church and person... most people will happily share their passions with equally passionate beginners, and churches are crying out for organ players, they are a dying breed.
- tigerlily 4y ago
  It's not even weird and I'm on the other side of the world. I know at least one gay organist in my town, and over half my local church choir are unbelievers. Most do it for the repertoire and keeping their pipes in good nick for their real passion: musical theatre.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Also here to say "queer self-taught musician" describes every church music director I've ever known (3)
    - thinkmcfly 4y ago
      I'm not gonna brush off the idea that it's tough as a gay person or someone who thinks gay people have the right to exist to get in with a crowd that often thinks lgtbq people deserve to die
- jtbayly 4y ago
  Gay organists are common enough to be a trope.
allthetime 4y ago
In a way, the entire room is the instrument. How cool is that.
tgv 4y ago
I've got a second hand organ (trademark "Content", but there are more) at home with two manuals and (almost full) pedal. They're not expensive. There are three and four manual versions too. More than good enough to learn and practice. And no mistake: professional organists use these too, since practicing at a real organ is hard for them, too. Many (smaller) churches use similar organs instead of pipe organs, because of the economics. > they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room They're near perfect recordings with all the features, e.g. https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam-laurenskerk-main-organ.html https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam... If you want to hear what people play on their home setup: https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front
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temporarara 4y ago
Hey, just contact your local church music director. You don't even have to become close friends, just explain politely that you would be super grateful to have access to organs. Most of the time things can be arranged if you or the music director aren't obnoxius persons. Being a queer or self-taught musician with no degree is of no interest for anyone involved in this kind of arrangement. I'd assume not being a member of the said church is the biggest obstacle you can reasonably have here, and it can be non-issue too, especially if you are not hoping to instantly gain regular access. Don't be an ass about your lack of religion and hope that they are not an ass about having a religion. I know a few music directors in churches and they are definitely not very religious and it's mostly just a job for them and they are always eager to talk about organs to everyone interested, of course things vary a lot. One must also understand that giving access to expensive instrument that isn't even their own like organs (especially unsupervised) requires high trust and sometimes it's just too much to ask even if you are a lifelong member of the said church. But asking is cheap, don't hesitate to contact your local church music director(s) if you are seriously interested.
GeompMankle 4y ago
If you are in the states and having trouble getting access to church organs, find your local theatre organ club or ATOS chapter. Most of them have some form of access to theatre pipe organs and if you learn on a theatre organ you will be able to transition to a less diverse and more refined beast like a church instrument. It also helps to not be in a high cost of living area. The lower the cost of living, the lower the cost of auditorium space. The lower the cost of auditorium space, the easier it is to get access to organs (to a point).
jacquesm 4y ago
Have a look at the high end electronic organs, they are pretty good (and also pretty expensive, but still a small fraction of what the real thing would cost). Mixtuur, Johannus, van der Poel and quite a few others will give you the opportunity to play and practice to your hearts content and typically a 50 euro donation to the church will get you a 1/2 hour (sometimes more) to play on the real thing if and when you feel you are ready for that (and if you're really good they might get you to become their stand-in organist). On the cheap end: you can build your own, which is what I did, I converted a really old analogue organ that I bought for next to nothing into a sample based organ running Grand Orgue, it's not quite Hauptwerk but it is very good and sounds amazing, much more organ than I'm worthy of. Total cost: about 500 euros.
martinjacobd 4y ago
If you're in the US, you may want to try to find an episcopal church. They seem to be liturgically conservative enough to still have organs but are generally socially liberal enough to be more accepting. Ymmv, obviously. But I will say that personally in years of playing the organ and asking random churches (including conservative ones) if I could borrow their organs on a quiet weekday, my bisexuality has never come up. And I didn't have to be friends with the choir director either. Once, I attended one Mass and just went up to him afterwards to thank him for playing (it was beautiful) and ask if I could ever practice with it. I know it's different from many places as I'm in a big city, but at least four organists whom I've known personally are gay. Many churches don't even require you to be religious even to be employed to play the organ there. Randomly on an airplane, I spoke with an atheist music professor who was choir director/organist at a congregationalist church. They didn't seem to care. So I doubt it'd be a big deal if you just want to practice. The choir director at my current (liberal) parish never takes Communion--I don't know if he is personally religious one way or the other, but it seems to be little more than a job to him. Also, you should try to find some churches where there is more than just "drab church hymns." 20th and even 21st century voluntaries, anthems, and choral preludes are alive and well in certain segments of Christendom. See for instance the churches that Bálint Karosi plays in. I doubt you'd describe his music as "drab." My parish runs the gamut from Palestrina to something from the 20th century at least every Sunday. Just my 2 cents.
- AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
  I once asked a church choir director: how many people in a typical choir do really believe in god. His answer was: zero. As for the priest - he said - it's more like a coin flip: some of them are still religious.
  - jacobmartin 4y ago
    Triply so if the choir is a professional choir. It's a job. They don't ask you the Creed before you audition.
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
I mean I wouldnt look at this like organs are somehow gatekept : theyre just fucking expensive so you have to get in with the institutions that own them to be able to play em.
topaz0 4y ago
Calling the organ rep "drab church hymns" is an unfortunately common misunderstanding. Both because the hymns can be beautiful and varied (both in compositional and performance style -- registration, improvised counterpoint, etc), and because there is a lot more beyond hymns: hundreds of years worth of preludes and fugues, toccatas, concerti, organ symphonies, and various other forms. Most of the placed I've lived, I've been able to find a nearby church that does a (secular) concert/recital series that often features the organ. Try finding one of those if you are interested. As for getting access to an instrument, I second others who have replied to you: many of the organists I've encountered were queer in some way or other (though mostly gay men by far), and the rest of them were well aware and understanding that many of their peers and teachers were gay. I think if you reach out to a church organist they will likely be understanding and helpful.
sambapa 4y ago
There is this thing called "Organteq". It's made by mad scientists (well, mathematicians and engineers) from France and is based on physical modelling. Look it up, it's great!
- elihu 4y ago
  Also Hauptwerk, or if you prefer something open source there's GrandOrgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Oh super I did not realize they have a linux version of Organteq, I will definitely have to try that. I've used Grand Orgue so far and that works quite well, but I am a very happy user of Pianoteq (you can guess what that does) and Modartt has definitely raised the bar there, so I'm curious what they can do with Organs (arguably: easier to model in theory but probably a lot harder in practice).
dylan604 4y ago
You mean like the best use I've seen being from the Simpsons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI
noyoudumbdolt 4y ago
I bet half the organists at Catholic churches are gay.

rwmj 4y ago

Anna Lapwood demonstrating the features of a pipe organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzK-tYFGQx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzK-tYFGQx4 Edit: Although she didn't explain how they "programme" the buttons. Presumably by adjusting something in the guts of the organ.

packetslave 4y ago
Anna's great! Last year she played the Royal Albert Hall organ at a Bonobo electronic music concert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyAF9M3XVw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyAF9M3XVw
frosted-flakes 4y ago
It's all computer-controlled, so the programming is probably done with a computer or a built-in digital interface.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Not necessarily on all organs though, there are still some all mechanical ones that are alive and well!
matttpt 4y ago
The system for storing and recalling stop combinations ("registrations") is called a combination action [0]. On a modern instrument, it's generally built with electronics, including a solid-state memory. It's also user-programmable. Usually, this is done through a "set" button: the organist holds down the set button and then simultaneously presses the button ("piston") that they want to program. The current state of all the stops that the piston controls is saved, and can then be recalled later by pressing the piston again. On many instruments, the combination action features multiple "memory levels" (possibly hundreds!). Each memory level is an independent copy of the settings for all the user-programmable pistons, so e.g. the "general 1" piston can be programmed to recall one registration on memory level 1 and a different registration on memory level 2. There's usually an LED display or screen that shows the active memory level (they're named numerically), with accompanying buttons to increase and decrease it. Generally, on a shared instrument (e.g. at a music school or large church), an organist will be assigned a range of memory levels for their own use. Some combination actions even have a "lock" feature that makes a memory level read-only until it's explicitly unlocked, which helps prevent one organist from clobbering another's registrations if they accidentally punch in the wrong memory level. Some older instruments (built before electronics) also have combination actions with varying designs and degrees of flexibility. I don't know much about them, but the Wikipedia link overviews some of them. Indeed, older systems often need to be set in the "guts of the organ." They might even require an organ builder to come configure them. Some organs (e.g. small instruments, Baroque-era instruments, and modern instruments built in certain historical styles) don't have combination actions at all. In that case, all stops must be moved manually, either by the organist or by a helper ("registrant") or two. It can take time to get used to playing while a helper on either side of you manipulates the stops. It can also be nerve-wracking to be a registrant, knowing that if you lose your place in the music, you might mess up your colleague's performance! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_(organ)#Combination_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_(organ)#Combinati...

fredley 4y ago

If you want to learn more about pipe organs from a completely different viewpoint, this series where a pipe organ is gradually rebuilt by an extremely talented and enthusiastic amateur is great fun! LOOK MUM NO COMPUTER - I BOUGHT A WHOLE CHURCH ORGAN - Part 1: The Organ Removal https://youtu.be/8PwwRR8deHk https://youtu.be/8PwwRR8deHk

uuddlrlrbaba 4y ago
Came here to plug this. It was a great watch, and hearing a classic pipe organ connected to a midi arpeggiator is so cool Also, he builds his own midi interface for the pipe organ (iirc with arduino), which is quite a cool thing to watch. And realizing that the mechanics of it all are fundamentally simple, but complex due to being repeated on a physically massive scale

the_other 4y ago

I discovered Sarah Davachi[0] via the excellent Why We Bleep podcast[1] recently. She makes interesting music, often using organs. [0]: https://www.sarahdavachi.com https://www.sarahdavachi.com [1]: https://www.whywebleep.com/whywebleep/ https://www.whywebleep.com/whywebleep/

sporkl 4y ago

If anyone’s curious to experiment with the different kinds of stops, the FOSS Aeolus VST plugin is pretty good https://github.com/Archie3d/aeolus_plugin https://github.com/Archie3d/aeolus_plugin

mikeyouse 4y ago

I went to a small, vaguely religious, liberal arts school and one of my classmates who I didn't know well but was friendly with was heading to medical school after college. During our graduation ceremonies, he surprised most by leaving the student section and taking his seat behind the organ at the church our ceremony was in and just slayed the ivories (are organ keys called ivories?). It was phenomenal. After the official program, he was just messing around playing popular music and shooting the shit with everyone for another hour or two. It turned out he was a biochem major, chemistry & liturgical organ minor. Pipe organs seem like such magical instruments, I'm always shocked when I meet someone who can play one.

falcolas 4y ago

Also of interest: Wurlitzer Organs. Their biggest difference is the addition of non-wind instruments, and intentional vibrato added to the wind instruments. They were originally used to provide music and sound effects for silent movies and plays. There's one in Scottsdale, AZ that's a lot of fun to visit in person (there are YouTube videos of it too). Organ Stop Pizza

fipar 4y ago
Yes! Adding to what you said, Wendy Carlos has an interesting writeup on her MIDI "Wurlitzer": https://www.wendycarlos.com/wurlynew/ https://www.wendycarlos.com/wurlynew/, and the "Historical Roots" section mentions the use in silent movies.

jvolkman 4y ago

Mostly unrelated to wind instruments: I always thought motorcycles and musical instruments came from the same Yamaha, but apparently they split back in 1955. Interesting that after almost 70 years both companies are still using the same logo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Motor_Company#Beginnings:_1955 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Motor_Company#Beginning...

deleted 4y ago
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damon_c 4y ago
from that page listing the owners of Yamaha Motor Company: > The Master Trust Bank of Japan (11.82%) > Yamaha Corporation (9.91%) > Toyota (3.58%) I guess that ownership stake smooths some things out.

emersonrsantos 4y ago

There's a software that I used to emulate a pipe organ (and also harpsichords). I used it for years and it has a library with a lot of historical organs around the world: https://www.hauptwerk.com https://www.hauptwerk.com, as far as I know this is the only commercially supported PC/Mac software dedicated to this.

packetslave 4y ago
There are quite a few high-quality sampled pipe organs out there, most of which run in Native Instruments' Kontakt sampler software. My personal favorites are the RAH (https://www.royalalberthallorgan.com/ https://www.royalalberthallorgan.com/) and the Rugby and Union Chapel organs from Spitfire Audio (https://www.spitfireaudio.com/symphonic-organ https://www.spitfireaudio.com/symphonic-organ)
- tgv 4y ago
  Hauptwerk beats Kontakt in this department, I'm afraid. Certainly the latter two can't compare to the full-featured models that are on offer for Hauptwerk, which include wind models for tremulants and all. If you're not after trying out all registrations, but just want the sound, Kontakt is good enough.
  - packetslave 4y ago
    oh, sure. Hauptwerk is definitely the way to go if you want the "real organ" experience, since it can also do multiple manuals, pedals, etc. Me, I just want to rattle peoples' teeth with the RAH's virtual 32' reed stops. :-)
billfruit 4y ago
There also seems to be this: https://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/ https://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/
severak_cz 4y ago
Or you can use open source Grand Orgue. I am using it with default sound set and it sounds good enough for me. https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue

odyssey7 4y ago

For an alternate implementation, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stalacpipe_Organ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stalacpipe_Organ

pikminguy 4y ago
I've seen the Stalacpipe in person and it's honestly underwhelming. The idea is neat but it doesn't really work in practice. The stalactites are so quiet and the "organ" covers such a large area that it's pretty much impossible to hear the whole thing without amplification.

mauvehaus 4y ago

I went down the rabbit hole on pipe organs some years back when a school I was working at didn't have working bells (ridiculous, I know) or synchronized clocks. The simplest organ pipe is basically a big-ass whistle. Besides the metal ones you see front and center, there are also wooden ones that are typically square in cross section and have a block and labium exactly like the recorder you may have been forced to play in elementary school. A recorder is basically a whistle with some extra holes so it can play different notes. I got as far as building the pipe, buying a thrift-shop vacuum cleaner, hooking the hose out to the output end, scrounging the circuit board out of an extra USB keyboard and soldering a solid-state relay in place of the scroll lock LED (inspired by the bit in Cryptonomicon where the protagonist uses a keyboard LED as a Morse code output), and starting to hack some code together to turn the vacuum cleaner (via the keyboard/relay) on and off on a schedule before I decided that I wasn't going to become a teacher after all. I never did hook it all up. All this to say: getting a single note instrument that makes some kind of noise and isn't tuned is ridiculously easy if you don't care about the noise you make creating the required airflow and don't involve a computer.

daverol 4y ago

Instrument or spectacle? <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KYMpBx9og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KYMpBx9og>

GeompMankle 4y ago

Although most organ music played for liturgical or academic reasons is terrifyingly boring, there is a decent contingent of symphonic and "theatre" (yes -re) organ people who want something that moves us and maybe erodes some of the concrete work elsewhere in building. Misc tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzpQHz2dGX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzpQHz2dGX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VN5DGw3OvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VN5DGw3OvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_vvBuH2ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_vvBuH2ts Also, even some of the classical works from folks like Ravel, Liszt and particularly have some ball busters if played on a big machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrwazpZvAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrwazpZvAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3cZ-7-IoI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3cZ-7-IoI . TLDR: the folks that want to hear organs sound good go find other people that want to hear organs sound good and we have conventions and listen to organs sounding good.

User23 4y ago
I can't imagine finding Bach terrifyingly boring. I'm practically tone deaf and I can still perceive the rich structure of the music.
coldtea 4y ago
>Although most organ music played for liturgical or academic reasons is terrifyingly boring Huh?
- GeompMankle 4y ago
  I generalized. To be specific, the interesting part of liturgical and most classical organ music requires an advanced understanding of harmony and nuance that the typical average citizen of the Earth will rarely accumulate the hundreds to thousands of hours that it takes to appreciate in context. For most people, it's like watching 2700 ELO chess masters play without a commentator: hard to appreciate. On the other hand, for me organs are really fun to listen to so I will put up with classical and liturgical music even if it kind of puts me to sleep and because I've listened to it enough that I can deal. Frankly, sometimes the best part of the typical liturgical organ experience is during the time they are tuning the organ before the audience arrives. I can listen to individual pipes beating against each other and the tuning process a lot longer than I can handle something like Jean Guillou's Improvisations for Christmas. More power to the folks who can stomach classical organ music though. You guys pay the bills for the rest of us who want to hear melodies we recognized. However, the organ (particular symphonic organ and theatre variants) are frankly pretty adept at translations of music that is rhythmically and familiar to popular music trends of the last 60 years. In this case, the listener doesn't have to be nearly as intimately familiar with the trends of music between the 1700s and before the date their grandparents were born.

college_physics 4y ago

Not sure how widespread knowledge this is but the organ has an amazingly long history, starting at least 200 bc. [0]. They were using a water mechanism to smooth the air pressure [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulis_of_Dion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulis_of_Dion

a4isms 4y ago

Completely tangential anecdote: --- At one point, a little software business/hustle of mine had run its course, and I needed some steady income while I figured out my next move, so I got a job as a retail computer salesperson. The store was located in Toronto's financial district, and we got a lot of lawyers, bankers, accountants, &c. buying computers and software, which we sold in boxes. Those days are long gone, of course. One day, some of my colleagues were snickering to each other, and when I asked "What's up," they giggled and told me there was a customer who was asking for me. I was the only employee who owned a Mac, and my colleagues took great delight in sending me Apple customers. Well, to digress, if a customer was asking about a laser printer for their Mac, my colleagues would ask me for my help, but keep the sale and its commission for themselves. But f a customer wanted a box of 3.5" floppies for their Mac, my colleagues thought it was great fun referring the sale to me out of teh good ness of their hearts. This was another "goodness of their hearts" referral, for as I approached the customer, I realized at once that there was a personal hygiene thing going on. The customer was also dressed in a very shabby attire relative to the business norms of the 90s, and had trouble making eye contact. Once I realized this was a prank referral, I resolved not to let them get my goat, so I played it straight, treating them as I would any lawyer in a power suit shopping for a half dozen PCs to automate their office. The customer was browsing development tools, and so I asked if they wrote software. I was told they did, but I hadn't heard of anything they wrote. "Why ever not," I asked. "Oh, I write software for pipe organs," was the reply, "It's a very small industry, and if you know who the major manufacturers are, you probably already know who I am." The customer actually worked on contract for some European manufacturers, and personal habits aside, was the real deal. After answering a number of questions about text editors—Anybody else remember when it was commonplace to pay big money for an editor? We still do pay for some editors, but it doesn't seem to be a common thing any more, thanks to OSS—the customer spend maybe $700 on tools as they were upgrading their entire development setup. I never saw them again, but I have also never forgotten that our industry has many, many "niches" that can support independent contractors or even entire businesses. It's not all FAANGs. --- And that's my pipe organ software story.

temporal_123 4y ago

You can build your own Pipe Organ emulator, using a raspberry Pi, Linux, Arduino and 3d printed parts. See: https://openpipes.org https://openpipes.org

throwaway0b1 4y ago

As someone who is both an organ nerd and... I'll say very religiously conservative (although that's only relevant to some points), a couple things people in this thread might find interesting: - If you're looking for pipe organs and are in the US, check out https://pipeorgandatabase.org/ https://pipeorgandatabase.org/ . It's very comprehensive, has stoplists for most organs, and has pictures for many of the larger ones. - I see quite a few people calling organ music boring, particularly in association with church music, and I'd like to challenge that assumption. Off the top of my head, a handful of things that come to mind: (1) Hymns are meant to be sung with, usually by people who are not trained singers. That leads to significant limitations for the accompaniment. That said, there is a lot more variation in preludes, postludes, etc. (2) Organ is hard. Being able to play boring hymns well with a week or two of preparation can easily take 2-3 years of daily practice, even with previous background on piano. (3) Many recordings fail to capture the full magnitude of organ music. To repeat something that I think is a bit oversaid, but is accurate nonetheless: the building is the instrument. The building is the instrument. (4) One thing that it's hard for me to tell is how much of the difference of opinion is that I have unusual tastes in music, and how much is that a lot of people haven't had the opportunity to hear good organ music played by a good organist. (5) Yes, you can be expressive on organ. Yes, it's hard. Depending on the song (and the composition itself plays a big role here - don't think that a composer can't be expressive) that may come across in rubato, opening/closing the swell box (and potentially others), articulation, manual changes, etc. (I've heard just a few pieces with people one foot on the swell pedal for most of the song. They were very impressive, although I suppose a lot of that comes from the perspective of an organist. It's also very hard. See point 2.) Also: (6) Choosing registration in and of itself is kind of an art (and a lot of fun, especially on big organs). There are so many different timbres you can get on an organ that it's really beyond comparison to most other instruments; using this alone it's easy to express everything from mournful to bombastic fanfare. That became more of a jumbled mess than I intended, but hopefully there's something of interest to some of you.

throwaway0b1 4y ago
Also: I have easy access to a few pipe organs (mostly small, but not all of them), so if anyone has questions feel free to ask; general organ questions are also welcome, of course.

organman91 4y ago

In addition to being thought of as a wind or keyboard instrument, there's another component to all pipe organs that makes each of them unique in a way (almost) no other instrument is - the room they are installed in. With very rare exceptions, pipe organs aren't mobile, so the acoustics of the room matter almost as much as the pipes do. Here's Rob Scallon exploring the largest pipe organ in the midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeB3JnKp8To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeB3JnKp8To Here's a more in depth look at all the sounds of that same organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1S42E1BW9w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1S42E1BW9w - this channel has documented a number of organs over the years.