6 ms·

Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect

Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

throwaway20222 4y ago
I sometimes wonder if companies should/could be forced to publish a “lifetime cost” of all of their products, much like we do energy ratings for appliances. Something that would show all of the expenses over the lifetime of the products, including estimated maintenance and lifespan before replacement so people have a better idea of the true cost of the purchase. I am confident the reporting would likely be captured by the manufacturers anyway and there would be a lot of arbitrary inputs into the reports, but something to fight the short term profit taking you describe.
- ddulaney 4y ago
  Hard to imagine this working, even in a perfect world. Set aside regulatory capture and corruption and politicking and pretend that everybody does a genuine best-effort attempt to be honest. It's extremely hard to know ahead of time which products will ultimately be reliable and which will be flaky. Most flaky components weren't designed with that in mind -- there are some exceptions, but maintenance headaches are normally a mistake by the manufacturer. And even setting that aside, a big part of "cheap to maintain" is how many units you ship: part of why it's cheap to maintain a Civic or a Corolla is because they made millions of them, parts are everywhere, and every shop knows how to deal with them. But knowing up front if your product is going to be a hit or a flop is just not generally possible, even though that has a huge impact on maintenance costs. Even in a world of angels, I don't know that this idea would work in general. Maybe if it was specific to some industries where the costs are easier to estimate?
  - robin_reala 4y ago
    It’s already the case that you have to do this for certain groups of products in France under the AGEC laws. Take for example this dishwasher: https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/diskad-lave-vaisselle-encastrable-ikea-700-40475416/ https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/diskad-lave-vaisselle-encastrab... . It has an “indice de répairabilité” of 7.4, generated from a bunch of different factors such as ease of disassembly, availability of spare parts and documentation, and the ability to factory-reset it. The data sheet listing those factors for this model is here: https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/files/pdf/4f/fd/4ffd4fd2/indice-de-reparabilite-lave-vaisselle-diskad.pdf https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/files/pdf/4f/fd/4ffd4fd2/indice-d...
    - rand846633 4y ago
      Do you have any personal experience or opinion if this law/metric is helpful for consumers in praxis?
      - robin_reala 4y ago
        No: it’s fairly recent (and in fact only a part of the wider set of AGEC requirements that include labelling for recyclability, recycled status, consumption of rare earths and precious metals, origin of textiles, etc.) And then there’s the EU-wide Digital Product Passport[1] coming in the next few years that’ll up the game again. We’ll see over the coming years what customer perception is like. [1] A report on this at https://www.corporateleadersgroup.com/files/cisl_digital_products_passport_report_v6.pdf https://www.corporateleadersgroup.com/files/cisl_digital_pro...
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      I don't know what, if any, regulations are involved but here in Norway several of the big electrical retailers have started publishing the expected lifetime of products together with statement of how long spares will be available. For example the Ankarsrum food mixer (successor to the classic Electrolux Assistent) entry at Elkjop.no states that the expected lifetime is 30 years and that spares will be available for 12 years. https://www.elkjop.no/product/hjem-rengjoring-og-kjokkenutstyr/kjokkenapparater/kjokkenmaskiner-og-matlaging/kjokkenmaskin/ankarsrum-sunbeam-yellow-kjokkenmaskin-akm6230sb/374115#sustainability https://www.elkjop.no/product/hjem-rengjoring-og-kjokkenutst... The French idea looks good. IKEA don't provide that information here :-(
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Total cost of ownership is a pretty standard estimate in the auto world, but yes, it really needs to be done by a 3rd party, and of course the tractor market is pretty niche in comparison.
- clord 4y ago
  Even if they only did this with the maintenance schedule costs, with breakouts for major possible maintenance incidents, in present dollars. That would be extremely useful. Companies like consumer reports should do this sort of thing.
29athrowaway 4y ago
The damage is already done. MBAs had no long-term vision, so in each company they infested, they made poor strategic decisions such as moving manufacturing overseas, which then forced other companies to move their manufacturing overseas. The countries they chose have zero respect for intellectual property. So now what's left are zombie companies milking their cash cows dry as international competitors arise and take their market share.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  Solid argument. No chief executive with an MBA has ever contributed positively to the company they run. ::eyeroll::
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Well cant botch it that hard, the pals from ivy that are now in government, wont bail you out. So, guess we will never know the good from the bad >> eyescroll <<
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    well arguments like these are of course all about the statistical tendency because outliers are, by definition, not that important. But I notice you didn't actually give an example of an outlier MBA that did not behave this way and contributed positively to the company they ran?
    - listenallyall 4y ago
      I assumed in 2023 we're beyond simply applying negative stereotypes to people based on perceptions of a group, but apparently you aren't
      - hutzlibu 4y ago
        Erm no, if there is a group of hooligans, than I will still assume that they are up for violence and if there is a bunch of MBAs taking over companies, I will assume that they are there for short term profit.
Melting_Harps 4y ago
> Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon. I can't see how, the same people pushing for WTO/NAFTA are those who profited immensely from outsourcing in the 80s-90s are now the same one who likely stand to benefit the most from either supply chain disruptions, and war. The truth is that JD is just another monopoly ([0] over 50% market share of tractors) that represents the underlying aspects of crony capitalism writ large. This is just another example how the mantra that 'tech should be in everything' needs to die, and how pervasive these horrible practices can become for the small sector of humans (less than 1% of the Human population feeds the other 99%) who grow the food everyone eats. MBAs making supply chains inherently fragile and over who valued BS things like JIT are just reflecting what is most rewarded in the corpo culture: quick profits are the way to get fat bonuses and stock options in order to bail out when even the slightest hint of head-winds occur. This is just a symptom, not the cause and a reason why US manufacturing will likely take some time before it can get off it's addiction to the garbage made in China. 0: https://www.economicliberties.us/our-work/cheat-to-win-the-john-deere-story/# https://www.economicliberties.us/our-work/cheat-to-win-the-j...
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > MBAs making supply chains inherently fragile and over who valued BS things like JIT are just reflecting what is most rewarded in the corpo culture: Also reflected in what is most rewarded by consumers: lower prices. No business was ever going to thrive selling US manufactured goods at a significant price premium compared to non US manufactured goods.
  - i_am_proteus 4y ago
    Hoss, ask yer mechanic if his wrenches are Snap On or Harbor Freight.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      >a significant price premium Obviously paying the premium for Snap-On over harbor freight is worth it, for some people. Harbor Freight still makes the most sense for a huge portion of the market, reducing the market for US made tools. Whatever the result, it will be visible in what succeeds in the market over the long term.
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
What's the flip side? VC's? You know, the people who won't even start a company unless there's a way to try to monopolize the position, buy up all supply with seed money, and then extract ALL the possible rent from the market segment? "Long-term" thinking with precisely the same anti-competitive, anti-consumer end result.

Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

throwaway20222 4y ago

I sometimes wonder if companies should/could be forced to publish a “lifetime cost” of all of their products, much like we do energy ratings for appliances. Something that would show all of the expenses over the lifetime of the products, including estimated maintenance and lifespan before replacement so people have a better idea of the true cost of the purchase. I am confident the reporting would likely be captured by the manufacturers anyway and there would be a lot of arbitrary inputs into the reports, but something to fight the short term profit taking you describe.

ddulaney 4y ago
Hard to imagine this working, even in a perfect world. Set aside regulatory capture and corruption and politicking and pretend that everybody does a genuine best-effort attempt to be honest. It's extremely hard to know ahead of time which products will ultimately be reliable and which will be flaky. Most flaky components weren't designed with that in mind -- there are some exceptions, but maintenance headaches are normally a mistake by the manufacturer. And even setting that aside, a big part of "cheap to maintain" is how many units you ship: part of why it's cheap to maintain a Civic or a Corolla is because they made millions of them, parts are everywhere, and every shop knows how to deal with them. But knowing up front if your product is going to be a hit or a flop is just not generally possible, even though that has a huge impact on maintenance costs. Even in a world of angels, I don't know that this idea would work in general. Maybe if it was specific to some industries where the costs are easier to estimate?
- robin_reala 4y ago
  It’s already the case that you have to do this for certain groups of products in France under the AGEC laws. Take for example this dishwasher: https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/diskad-lave-vaisselle-encastrable-ikea-700-40475416/ https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/diskad-lave-vaisselle-encastrab... . It has an “indice de répairabilité” of 7.4, generated from a bunch of different factors such as ease of disassembly, availability of spare parts and documentation, and the ability to factory-reset it. The data sheet listing those factors for this model is here: https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/files/pdf/4f/fd/4ffd4fd2/indice-de-reparabilite-lave-vaisselle-diskad.pdf https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/files/pdf/4f/fd/4ffd4fd2/indice-d...
  - rand846633 4y ago
    Do you have any personal experience or opinion if this law/metric is helpful for consumers in praxis?
    - robin_reala 4y ago
      No: it’s fairly recent (and in fact only a part of the wider set of AGEC requirements that include labelling for recyclability, recycled status, consumption of rare earths and precious metals, origin of textiles, etc.) And then there’s the EU-wide Digital Product Passport[1] coming in the next few years that’ll up the game again. We’ll see over the coming years what customer perception is like. [1] A report on this at https://www.corporateleadersgroup.com/files/cisl_digital_products_passport_report_v6.pdf https://www.corporateleadersgroup.com/files/cisl_digital_pro...
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    I don't know what, if any, regulations are involved but here in Norway several of the big electrical retailers have started publishing the expected lifetime of products together with statement of how long spares will be available. For example the Ankarsrum food mixer (successor to the classic Electrolux Assistent) entry at Elkjop.no states that the expected lifetime is 30 years and that spares will be available for 12 years. https://www.elkjop.no/product/hjem-rengjoring-og-kjokkenutstyr/kjokkenapparater/kjokkenmaskiner-og-matlaging/kjokkenmaskin/ankarsrum-sunbeam-yellow-kjokkenmaskin-akm6230sb/374115#sustainability https://www.elkjop.no/product/hjem-rengjoring-og-kjokkenutst... The French idea looks good. IKEA don't provide that information here :-(
hotpotamus 4y ago
Total cost of ownership is a pretty standard estimate in the auto world, but yes, it really needs to be done by a 3rd party, and of course the tractor market is pretty niche in comparison.
clord 4y ago
Even if they only did this with the maintenance schedule costs, with breakouts for major possible maintenance incidents, in present dollars. That would be extremely useful. Companies like consumer reports should do this sort of thing.

29athrowaway 4y ago

The damage is already done. MBAs had no long-term vision, so in each company they infested, they made poor strategic decisions such as moving manufacturing overseas, which then forced other companies to move their manufacturing overseas. The countries they chose have zero respect for intellectual property. So now what's left are zombie companies milking their cash cows dry as international competitors arise and take their market share.

listenallyall 4y ago
Solid argument. No chief executive with an MBA has ever contributed positively to the company they run. ::eyeroll::
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Well cant botch it that hard, the pals from ivy that are now in government, wont bail you out. So, guess we will never know the good from the bad >> eyescroll <<
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  well arguments like these are of course all about the statistical tendency because outliers are, by definition, not that important. But I notice you didn't actually give an example of an outlier MBA that did not behave this way and contributed positively to the company they ran?
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    I assumed in 2023 we're beyond simply applying negative stereotypes to people based on perceptions of a group, but apparently you aren't
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      Erm no, if there is a group of hooligans, than I will still assume that they are up for violence and if there is a bunch of MBAs taking over companies, I will assume that they are there for short term profit.

Melting_Harps 4y ago

> Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon. I can't see how, the same people pushing for WTO/NAFTA are those who profited immensely from outsourcing in the 80s-90s are now the same one who likely stand to benefit the most from either supply chain disruptions, and war. The truth is that JD is just another monopoly ([0] over 50% market share of tractors) that represents the underlying aspects of crony capitalism writ large. This is just another example how the mantra that 'tech should be in everything' needs to die, and how pervasive these horrible practices can become for the small sector of humans (less than 1% of the Human population feeds the other 99%) who grow the food everyone eats. MBAs making supply chains inherently fragile and over who valued BS things like JIT are just reflecting what is most rewarded in the corpo culture: quick profits are the way to get fat bonuses and stock options in order to bail out when even the slightest hint of head-winds occur. This is just a symptom, not the cause and a reason why US manufacturing will likely take some time before it can get off it's addiction to the garbage made in China. 0: https://www.economicliberties.us/our-work/cheat-to-win-the-john-deere-story/# https://www.economicliberties.us/our-work/cheat-to-win-the-j...

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> MBAs making supply chains inherently fragile and over who valued BS things like JIT are just reflecting what is most rewarded in the corpo culture: Also reflected in what is most rewarded by consumers: lower prices. No business was ever going to thrive selling US manufactured goods at a significant price premium compared to non US manufactured goods.
- i_am_proteus 4y ago
  Hoss, ask yer mechanic if his wrenches are Snap On or Harbor Freight.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >a significant price premium Obviously paying the premium for Snap-On over harbor freight is worth it, for some people. Harbor Freight still makes the most sense for a huge portion of the market, reducing the market for US made tools. Whatever the result, it will be visible in what succeeds in the market over the long term.

TheRealDunkirk 4y ago

What's the flip side? VC's? You know, the people who won't even start a company unless there's a way to try to monopolize the position, buy up all supply with seed money, and then extract ALL the possible rent from the market segment? "Long-term" thinking with precisely the same anti-competitive, anti-consumer end result.