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Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about G
by user_named 4y ago
Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy.
It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.
- AYBABTME 4y agoAgreed. Expats don't remember the bureaucracy they had to deal with in their own countries, because they did it: - over the years - step by step - with the help of their parents or simply their parents took care of most things when they were young/born/growing up. Then they arrive in a new country and realize what it's like to administratively become a functional resident. You probably got your first bank account in your teenage, your national IDs as a newborn, etc. Then you move elsewhere and you need to create all these things from scratch and discover them also.
- unity1001 4y agoThis is likely the best comment in this thread.
- ankushb 4y agoClearly you haven't been to the efficient country like Singapore, Switzerland.
- Gud 4y agoSeconded. I moved from Sweden to Switzerland (Aargau) and I was in awe of how little nonsense there’s been.
- ornornor 4y agoSwiss bureaucracy is expensive but it’s swift, easy, and very cordial. I’ve never lived anywhere that was so good on paperwork. Exchange my non EEU drivers license? A week flat and about 100.-. Getting a residence permit? 100.- approx and less than two weeks. Questions about your tax return or filing? An email to the cantonal tax office and you’ll get an (encrypted answer) within a few days. That’s only about the government though, private companies are hilariously terrible at customer service or paperwork especially compared to US/Canada.
- soco 4y agoYou mean, private companies are "streamlining their customer service" or whatever the name of the day is. And it's not only in Switzerland, everywhere it's just incredibly hostile, to the point where you feel like smashing some office windows just because.
- ornornor 4y agoIt feels more like the general attitude is “you should be glad we’re letting you give us your money. Now shut up and go away.” You’ll never get an apology, never get an easy refund because they goofed up. No. You’ll struggle, waste your time, and get nowhere. But I guess this is an EU thing compared to what I’m used to in Canada and the US.
- AYBABTME 4y agoOff course YMMV. But that's not the rule in general. I have recent experience with Korea which is overall quite efficient in fact, and yet it's still a struggle to figure out what I need to do, how to do it, and language barriers don't help.
- user_named 4y agoIf a Korean goes to your country and they only speak Korean, is it going to be easy for them?
- notch656c 4y agoIf they go to California places like the DMV will provide them a free Korean-English translator service. Under AB 60 an undocumented Korean could get a driver license and a free translator service to obtain it. If I am an undocumented immigrant in Korea will they provide a translator for me to get state ID as an "illegal" immigrant? Honestly I would be shocked if you could point me anywhere else in the world where a Korean could be illegally staying, go to the motor bureau and not only get a free translator but get an official state ID and driver license. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/customer-service/interpreter-services/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/customer-service/interpreter-s...
- nokya 4y agoFully agree. I will add two things. First, most "digital nomads" who interact with the public administration and institutions (e.g., banks) are not standard customers. Employees often have no clue how to deal with them and many processes contain manual steps that require someone's validation or approval, and often target a very small group of individuals (those tasked with "dealing with" foreigners). It can slow down things. Second, Portugal is particularly well known for having great ideas and conferences about digital transformation but completely lacks the ability to deliver within its own ranks. To its defense, most citizens cannot easily purchase services online, either because lack of money, or because lack of computer literacy/equipment, or because they don't even have an online payment mechanism. These factors greatly limit incentives for a rapid digital transformation, which incidentally, is precisely what digital nomads crave for. The comparison with Switzerland was made earlier, it matches my argument: 1) widespread computer literacy and modern endpoint equipment 2) widespread access to online payment solutions 3) the population is used to pay-as-you-go public service (vs. all-inclusive taxpayer service expected by citizens in most EU countries). These combined greatly encourage the deployment of efficient online interfaces.
- 8ytecoder 4y agoSlightly off topic but I see this often enough and I’m curious to know, when do you call someone moving to another to work an expat instead of an immigrant.
- weberer 4y agoExpats are usually on temporary visas and don't apply for citizenship.
- vineyardmike 4y agoYou immigrate (verb) into a country. That makes you an immigrant (noun) of your new country. You emigrate (verb) out of a country. That makes you an emigrant (noun) of your old country. You expatriate (verb) to a country, from your homeland. You are an expatriate (noun) (aka expat) if you live in a country other than your native one. For example, an American-born man who moved to Germany for part of their career and is living in Vietnam for retirement would be an American expat, who immigrated to Vietnam and emigrated from Germany. You are often all 3 of them at once, depending on perspective. Colloquially, expats usually emigrate out of their homeland for specific reasons, usually either climate, culture, taxes. Eg. someone would expatriate to Portugal to take advantage of the tax scheme (this article), or maybe expatriate to Mexico for 'better' weather, or maybe expatriates to Paris for the cultural experience. It is often assumed or implied that an expat has no intention of "integrating" in the culture of their host nation. Eg. an American in Mexico that moved for the weather wouldn't raise children there or apply for citizenship, but simply enjoy retiring on the beach and taking advantage of the cheaper CoL. They may still primarily speak English and seek out fellow Americans-in-mexico to socialize with instead of the locals. Conversely, a full Mexican family (parents+kids) that moved to America "for a better life" may not be considered an expat, since they intend to become citizens of America and raise their family as Americans. That is why expats sometimes have a poor reputation in their host nation, compared to other "immigrants".
- vkou 4y agoSomeone moving from a wealthy country to a poorer one is an expat. Someone moving from a poor country to a wealthier one is an immigrant if they intend to stay for life, and a migrant if they don't. That's why you have American expats living in Thailand and Mexico, but Thai immigrants and Mexican migrants living in America.
- fy20 4y agoI'm not sure about Portugal, but a few years ago my wife was studying in Spain on a study abroad program. She is from another EU country, and we'd visited Spain a few times, so figured it would be easy. Pretty much every step of the way we encountered so much more bureaucracy (I am an immigrant to her country) than we could even imagine. She spoke Spanish, but if she didn't it would have been a million times harder. For example we wanted to get internet in the apartment we were renting. The local ISP (Orange) said that we needed a Spanish bank account, we said that we had a European account so could make an IBAN transfer, but apparently that wasn't an option. So we went to the bank and they said my wife needed a letter from the police. So we went there, and after showing all her university documents and waiting there for half a day, she got that. By that time the bank was closed, so we went back the next day, and after another few hours she had a bank account. We made a transfer of a few hundred euros from our other European account at home, then once it arrived a few days later, went back to the ISP. They took our details and the first payment, and then we figured everything was fine. A month later the first bill came and we tried to pay but it was declined, tried to log into online banking and that was blocked too. We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. So we went to visit the ISP with the intention of paying in store, but they said it wasn't an option. We explained the situation and said there was nothing they could do, we could only pay with a Spanish bank account. In the end we had to get a friend to make the ISP payment for us, every month while we were living there. Compare this to where we live now. You simply make payments to an IBAN bank account, so it can come from anywhere in Europe. If you need a local bank account, you can easily do so in any bank (I opened an account before I was officially living there, i.e. without any local ID, just my passport) or use something like Revolut. If you need to get a local phone number, you just go to the supermarket and buy a prepaid SIM for €1 - no ID needed.
- pixard 4y agoWhere do you live now (if you're comfortable sharing)?
- deanCommie 4y agoThis is a fairly long story but only one part of this seems like genuine "bureaucracy": > We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. That's an absolute nightmare (though I don't understand how you weren't notified, or what the recourse typically is for accounts closed due to "suspicious activity". The rest can be summarized as: * A business wants billing from a local bank account (not universal, but not unusual) * Opening a local bank account needs some information confirming your identity, which the police can do. * Getting these forms isn't instant * Banks don't have long opening hours
- Beltalowda 4y agoI moved back to my native Netherlands after several years abroad and encountered significant problems with the bureaucracy, more so than in any foreign country I've lived. I don't think it's an expat problem, rather it's a "if you fall slightly outside of the happy path then you can expect to run in to a lot of trouble"-problem. It's just that expats are a group of people that fairly frequently tend to fall outside of the happy path.
- nibbleshifter 4y agoI have heard the same from some Dutch people I know, particularly around the topic of the tax office.
- smueller1234 4y agoThis is it, 100%. Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! By the way, I've lived in a few European countries and researched many others. The Netherlands was by far the easiest/most efficient in terms of bureaucracy.
- Beltalowda 4y ago> Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! If only. Instead you run in to catch-22s and simply get a shrug and "it's not possible". The big downside of being the "easiest/most efficient" is that it deals with exceptions poorly; once you fall outside of the "efficient" workflow you're screwed. Lots of people run in to problems with this and people literally become homeless because of this. Ironically, it's easier if you're actually homeless and sleeping on the street – as opposed to being homeless and having enough money to stay at hotels or are temporarily staying with friends – as there are some special exceptions for people registered at the salvation army and such.
- MaxPengwing 4y agoThis is exactly why I a native Swede had to leave Sweden for Ireland. Im now back in Sweden and jesus christ the bureaucracy is insanely streamlined and optimised for the upper middle class happy path people. Everyone else is looked upon with confusion and disgust.
- nmfisher 4y agoExcept when you're an expat in a country that actually knows what it's doing, like Singapore. Bureaucracy here is A+, and is the yardstick we should measure every country against.
- csomar 4y agoThere is bureaucracy and then there is bureaucracy. Here is an example: Malaysia and Indonesia. Each country has its own bureaucratic nightmares but you can make useful comparisons. Malaysia: Easy to get a phone number. Easy to get an internet hotspot to get data. Reliable internet. Internet is fully open (no censorship). Indonesia: Hard to get a phone number. Confusing choices and prices with Whatsapp/FB mingled in the choices. Have to submit your passport photo to some dodgy dude, who has to get a certain authorization. Took half a day for the Internet to activate. Data is not very reliable. Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. So sure as an expat you'll face bureaucracy but some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit. This makes you lose significant time for relatively simple things (at least in other countries).
- Beltalowda 4y ago> Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. This depends on your ISP I believe; Telkom blocks Reddit, but I believe others do allow it. You don't need a VPN to bypass it, DNS-over-HTTPS will do as well. In general things in Indonesia seem to be ... complicated. Just buying something at the local Indomaret sometimes seemed to involve typing an entire essay on a computer.
- louison11 4y ago"some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit." Haha. Love it. That sums up a lot of Portuguese administrations sadly.
- stanislavb 4y agoWell, that's not exactly always true. I've had zero problems with bureaucracy since moving to Australia. My case has been that everything just works - minimal human involvement, and when it's present - it's pretty optimized. I think that due to the high cost of labour (highest minimal pay in the world) and lack of labour due to higher speed of development - whatever that can be automated has been automated.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoSame experience in NZ - you only start to see how hopeless europe is when you come back. I had 0 interaction with gov clark in nearly a decade in NZ, while in europe any sort of errand would require in face meetings. Even some digital forms would just email the form to a person in ivory tower for validation, who’ll tell you to visit office anyway…
- simongray 4y agoEurope is not one place with one single bureaucracy.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoOf course some places are better, but overall it's clearly blind to own faults.
- sofixa 4y ago"Europe". Counterpoint, in France the vast majority of bureacratic things can be done fully online. Last time i had to go in person was for a passport/ID card, so there are multiple good reasons (photo, biometric info, confirm your identity) for that. Some of the websites are not great, and sometimes they send you a confirmations by mail, but otherwise a pretty painless experience.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoDo you still need 3pieces of paperwork or permits just to buy a car?
- ggambetta 4y agoNo. I'm an expat in Switzerland and dealing with the government and other institutions has been great - can't even call it a bureaucracy. For reference, I found the UK pretty sensible, Spain frustrating, and my native south american country a nightmare.
- louison11 4y agoNo, Portugal is different. To give you perspective: it takes 2-3 years to exchange a foreign driver license (most foreigners I know drive illegally by now), a lot of administrations frequently “lose” applications and ask you to do it again when they have too much backlog (this cost me hundreds of dollars in back and forth, certified documents etc in the past). It’s also very common for administrations to have no one answering the phone/email. And most administrations are appointments only. So often, you kind of have to drive to different places, maybe different city halls, and hope that someone has a contact with an internal e-mail address and can hook you up. That’s just how it works. It’s the most barbaric administration and closest to a third world country I’ve experienced, and I’m French, so I know something about red tape.
- notch656c 4y agoMost third world countries with such bad/slow bureaucracy solve those issues with bribery. I'd hate to live someplace that both has low corruption and such high bureaucratic burdens.
- user_named 4y agoTakes 18 months to get permission for your foreign spouse to move to Sweden. It then takes 12-18 months to get into the social system - you register quickly, but for the bureaucracy to actually add you into the system takes that long. So no, you're wrong. Portugal is not different.
- ls15 4y agoWhat's wrong with complaining about sprawling bureaucracy? I can only see downsides and no upsides. Don't you want it to be eliminated? I think people are not yet complaining enough.
- sofixa 4y agoUnless you can complain with actionable complaints (It'd be great if i could fill this form on a website instead of on paper and mailing/faxing it), it literally serves no purpose.
- ls15 4y agoActionable advice: eliminate this step in the buraucracy that does not serve a purpose. When can I expect implementation of my idea?
- blakblakarak 4y agoI'm an English immgrant in France - lots of my compatriots complain about French bureaucracy but in all honesty it's far more efficient and accessible than it is in the UK.