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I see a lot of people talking about the legality of the thing, when this article is about the ethics of the thing. Sure, it’s legal to film people in public in

I see a lot of people talking about the legality of the thing, when this article is about the ethics of the thing. Sure, it’s legal to film people in public in the US without their consent. But it’s also shitty. Those two things can both be true. Maybe we might all be better off practicing DBAD: Don’t Be A Dick.

jfengel 4y ago
We're Americans. If we practiced DBAD, pretty much everything would be different. Of all our American flaws, "It's not illegal for me to be a dick and therefore I am going to be on" is perhaps the one we're proudest of. (Followed, perhaps, by "It's illegal for me to be a dick but you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and that's as good as legal" and "It's illegal for me to be a dick but nobody is going to bother prosecuting therefore it's as good as legal.") It would be great if we all practiced Don't Be A Dick. But for those who are most harmed by people being dicks, we need to figure out ways to protect them legally, because otherwise people will be a dick to them as hard as they possibly can. And every time you try, people will say "Nobody is being a dick to me therefore nobody needs to be protected."
- okamiueru 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - RGamma 4y ago
    Individualism, lack of sanctions for misbehavior.
  - bruce511 4y ago
    There are two ways to view the world, and what we do in it. Which one we adopt largely depends on the one those around us adopt. I make no judgement about which is "better" or "worse" - they both have positives and negatives. Inevitably, and obviously, you can probably figure out which one you fall into based on which one you react to. In the first case, you view the world around you and yours. You see events and think "how does this affect me and people like me". If taxes are going up this means I get less money. The alternative is through the lens of "how does this affect others." - them and theirs - yes, taxes are going up, but those in need will get better medical care, and I already have enough money myself. It's not just about money. Basically every policy discussion revolves around "us" and "them". Immigration, inflation, exploitation, environment, defense, guns and do on. How will this affect me and mine. How will it affect them and theirs. Inevitably every policy has an impact on a continuum, but too often the extreme is presented by media to reinforce one end of the spectrum. Thus the extremes start to matter more than the nuanced middle ground.
    - worik 4y ago
      > There are two ways to view the world,.... More than that. Seeing that is the first step in "not being a dick"
    - Hugsun 4y ago
      I agree. An additional aspect which is the reason I'm fairly left leaning is that I really dislike encounters with downtrodden people so I will gladly pay more taxes to prevent/save them from being that way. I could not live in a place with a homelessness issue like LA.
      - wonderwonder 4y ago
        Places like LA have high taxes and more homeless than places without high taxes. Maybe the programs in place that the high taxes pay for just incentivize homeless people to move there? Left leaning cities have a far greater number of homeless people.
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      I would argue there is a third. I'm open to taxes going up if the extra money is used effectively. Also what behavior are the funds incentivizing? If they are not used effectively or the incentivized behavior is not optimal then I am against them. For example cities like LA and SF give money to the homeless with virtually zero requirements so they are in effect incentivizing homeless people to move there and stay homeless. I am against this. I would be for spending money to clean homeless people up and get them jobs and provide shelter until they have acclimated back into society. The program would require actual proof of the participants trying to fix their circumstances. I am always for feeding and caring for homeless kids.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    I think a lot of people (often Americans) have trouble distinguishing between illegal/legal and wrong/right. In fact, they see no right and wrong: if I can do it then I will do it, other people be damned. They’ll wave their hands right in front of your face taunting “Nyah Nyah Nyah I can legally do this and there’s nothing you can do to stop me! Ha ha ha!” People will go out of their way to be an asshole because they can and nobody can stop them. Don’t like if I film you? Ha ha! It’s not illegal so I’m going to deliberately film you, and by the way, in other ways I’m going to also go right up to the line of what’s illegal and not cross it, because I can and because it irritates you.
    - spoiler 4y ago
      This is so infuriating and irritating to read; well done, lol
    - jfengel 4y ago
      The way I see it: we were very proud of our Bill of Rights, but never came up with a corresponding Bill of Responsibilities. You wouldn't expect one, of course, but the Bill of Rights gives people a thing to hold up and declare "I got mah rights!". Pretty much any time you see somebody clamoring about their rights, and ignoring any talk about responsibility (or talking about your responsibilities but not theirs), you can tell the conversation isn't going to go well.
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      And if you punch me in the face I'll shoot you because I feared for my life. 'Merica!
  - locopati 4y ago
    It's baked into the founding of the country. A bunch of folks arrived in a place where people were living and decided those people were less than human and killed them or moved them away from their homes (often by signing contracts they had no intention of upholding). Then, we captured a bunch of people from somewhere far away and moved them here for free labor. After the war we fought to end that, many places passed a lot of unconstitutional laws to continue to make their lives miserable. It's no surprise to me that, never having reckoned with all of that, the general American attitude is entitled and thoughtless.
- maerF0x0 4y ago
  This actually pretty accurately and succinctly describes the difference between American and Canadian culture. As a Canadian in the US I'm often asked the difference, and I've mostly held my tongue from saying "You're all pretty damn rude, and have fragile egos" but I think I might steal your description because it makes sense.
  - helloworld11 4y ago
    Nonsense. As a fellow Canadian I can safely say that MANY Canadians have plenty of fragile ego problems and are plenty rude too. Let's not generalize between two whole countries. Canadian media and government policy also has an obsessive complex with "differentiating itself" from American culture, to the point of becoming tedious about it, but that's another story.
  - gl-prod 4y ago
    "You guys should practice DBAD"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
trogdor 4y ago
> Sure, it’s legal to film people in public in the US without their consent. But it’s also shitty. I don’t think that it’s always shitty to film people in public without their consent. This is not a black and white issue. Do you feel that consent should be obtained from everyone who is visible in any video taken outdoors, regardless of whether those people are the intended subject of the video? Do you have a consent problem with surveillance videos? How about videos captured on car dash cameras? Let’s say you are at a tourist attraction, capturing a video of the attraction. Another visitor asks that you stop filming, because they don’t want to be in your video. Dickish to continue? I’m not so sure. It’s easy to say “don’t be a dick,” but that statement sidesteps the reality that reasonable people can (and do) disagree about what that means.
- poszlem 4y ago
  The biggest problem I have with those tiktokers is that they will ruin filming in public for the rest of us, as people will demand some kind of radical law prohibiting it. I am totally fine with the distinction that is enshrined in law in many places around the world: you can record everything in public, but you cannot publish what you recorded without consent. The issue is that we have two extremes (as it often happens) that either react to the camera as if it's the devil eating their souls and freak out, or we have the tiktokers basically ignoring the second part (no publication without consent).
  - SantalBlush 4y ago
    >react to the camera as if it's the devil eating their souls and freak out The problem is, if they politely ask someone to stop filming them, it won't have any effect.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  If the recording-in-public is for commercial purposes, yes I want to be asked for consent if for no other reason than to demand my slice of the pie.
  - bigiain 4y ago
ck2 4y ago
Since just before 2016 and enforced by the pandemic, it's pretty obvious if you are going through life relying on people not to take advantage of the fact that "being a dick" is a loophole while everyone else is polite or obeys the law, you are going to get run over or killed.
jamesgreenleaf 4y ago
Doesn't it differ by state law? I thought it was generally legal only insofar as the use of the footage isn't commercial.
mlindner 4y ago
It's interesting as this is one area where Japanese law is significantly different from American law. It's really easy to sue people in Japan and win for people using your image without your permission. This is why you see so many videos from Japan when news agencies film on the streets they'll blur people's faces.
lupex 4y ago
The kind of behavior described in the article can be off putting and unethical. Sometimes however pushing the boundary causes positive change. I am a photography enthusiast and a lot of very impactful if not world-changing photography in the past has been called unethical in their times. Some examples are Robert Frank's "The Americans" (https://www.lensculture.com/articles/robert-frank-the-americans https://www.lensculture.com/articles/robert-frank-the-americ... https://www.nga.gov/features/robert-frank/the-americans-1955-57.html https://www.nga.gov/features/robert-frank/the-americans-1955...), Dorothea Lange's "Migrant Mother" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_Mother https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_Mother)" and Steve McCurry's "Afghan girl" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl) photos. All received harsh criticism, but also raised awareness of issues in transformative ways.

jfengel 4y ago

We're Americans. If we practiced DBAD, pretty much everything would be different. Of all our American flaws, "It's not illegal for me to be a dick and therefore I am going to be on" is perhaps the one we're proudest of. (Followed, perhaps, by "It's illegal for me to be a dick but you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and that's as good as legal" and "It's illegal for me to be a dick but nobody is going to bother prosecuting therefore it's as good as legal.") It would be great if we all practiced Don't Be A Dick. But for those who are most harmed by people being dicks, we need to figure out ways to protect them legally, because otherwise people will be a dick to them as hard as they possibly can. And every time you try, people will say "Nobody is being a dick to me therefore nobody needs to be protected."

okamiueru 4y ago
[flagged]
- RGamma 4y ago
  Individualism, lack of sanctions for misbehavior.
- bruce511 4y ago
  There are two ways to view the world, and what we do in it. Which one we adopt largely depends on the one those around us adopt. I make no judgement about which is "better" or "worse" - they both have positives and negatives. Inevitably, and obviously, you can probably figure out which one you fall into based on which one you react to. In the first case, you view the world around you and yours. You see events and think "how does this affect me and people like me". If taxes are going up this means I get less money. The alternative is through the lens of "how does this affect others." - them and theirs - yes, taxes are going up, but those in need will get better medical care, and I already have enough money myself. It's not just about money. Basically every policy discussion revolves around "us" and "them". Immigration, inflation, exploitation, environment, defense, guns and do on. How will this affect me and mine. How will it affect them and theirs. Inevitably every policy has an impact on a continuum, but too often the extreme is presented by media to reinforce one end of the spectrum. Thus the extremes start to matter more than the nuanced middle ground.
  - worik 4y ago
    > There are two ways to view the world,.... More than that. Seeing that is the first step in "not being a dick"
  - Hugsun 4y ago
    I agree. An additional aspect which is the reason I'm fairly left leaning is that I really dislike encounters with downtrodden people so I will gladly pay more taxes to prevent/save them from being that way. I could not live in a place with a homelessness issue like LA.
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      Places like LA have high taxes and more homeless than places without high taxes. Maybe the programs in place that the high taxes pay for just incentivize homeless people to move there? Left leaning cities have a far greater number of homeless people.
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    I would argue there is a third. I'm open to taxes going up if the extra money is used effectively. Also what behavior are the funds incentivizing? If they are not used effectively or the incentivized behavior is not optimal then I am against them. For example cities like LA and SF give money to the homeless with virtually zero requirements so they are in effect incentivizing homeless people to move there and stay homeless. I am against this. I would be for spending money to clean homeless people up and get them jobs and provide shelter until they have acclimated back into society. The program would require actual proof of the participants trying to fix their circumstances. I am always for feeding and caring for homeless kids.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  I think a lot of people (often Americans) have trouble distinguishing between illegal/legal and wrong/right. In fact, they see no right and wrong: if I can do it then I will do it, other people be damned. They’ll wave their hands right in front of your face taunting “Nyah Nyah Nyah I can legally do this and there’s nothing you can do to stop me! Ha ha ha!” People will go out of their way to be an asshole because they can and nobody can stop them. Don’t like if I film you? Ha ha! It’s not illegal so I’m going to deliberately film you, and by the way, in other ways I’m going to also go right up to the line of what’s illegal and not cross it, because I can and because it irritates you.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    This is so infuriating and irritating to read; well done, lol
  - jfengel 4y ago
    The way I see it: we were very proud of our Bill of Rights, but never came up with a corresponding Bill of Responsibilities. You wouldn't expect one, of course, but the Bill of Rights gives people a thing to hold up and declare "I got mah rights!". Pretty much any time you see somebody clamoring about their rights, and ignoring any talk about responsibility (or talking about your responsibilities but not theirs), you can tell the conversation isn't going to go well.
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    And if you punch me in the face I'll shoot you because I feared for my life. 'Merica!
- locopati 4y ago
  It's baked into the founding of the country. A bunch of folks arrived in a place where people were living and decided those people were less than human and killed them or moved them away from their homes (often by signing contracts they had no intention of upholding). Then, we captured a bunch of people from somewhere far away and moved them here for free labor. After the war we fought to end that, many places passed a lot of unconstitutional laws to continue to make their lives miserable. It's no surprise to me that, never having reckoned with all of that, the general American attitude is entitled and thoughtless.
maerF0x0 4y ago
This actually pretty accurately and succinctly describes the difference between American and Canadian culture. As a Canadian in the US I'm often asked the difference, and I've mostly held my tongue from saying "You're all pretty damn rude, and have fragile egos" but I think I might steal your description because it makes sense.
- helloworld11 4y ago
  Nonsense. As a fellow Canadian I can safely say that MANY Canadians have plenty of fragile ego problems and are plenty rude too. Let's not generalize between two whole countries. Canadian media and government policy also has an obsessive complex with "differentiating itself" from American culture, to the point of becoming tedious about it, but that's another story.
- gl-prod 4y ago
  "You guys should practice DBAD"

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

trogdor 4y ago

> Sure, it’s legal to film people in public in the US without their consent. But it’s also shitty. I don’t think that it’s always shitty to film people in public without their consent. This is not a black and white issue. Do you feel that consent should be obtained from everyone who is visible in any video taken outdoors, regardless of whether those people are the intended subject of the video? Do you have a consent problem with surveillance videos? How about videos captured on car dash cameras? Let’s say you are at a tourist attraction, capturing a video of the attraction. Another visitor asks that you stop filming, because they don’t want to be in your video. Dickish to continue? I’m not so sure. It’s easy to say “don’t be a dick,” but that statement sidesteps the reality that reasonable people can (and do) disagree about what that means.

poszlem 4y ago
The biggest problem I have with those tiktokers is that they will ruin filming in public for the rest of us, as people will demand some kind of radical law prohibiting it. I am totally fine with the distinction that is enshrined in law in many places around the world: you can record everything in public, but you cannot publish what you recorded without consent. The issue is that we have two extremes (as it often happens) that either react to the camera as if it's the devil eating their souls and freak out, or we have the tiktokers basically ignoring the second part (no publication without consent).
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  >react to the camera as if it's the devil eating their souls and freak out The problem is, if they politely ask someone to stop filming them, it won't have any effect.
Dalewyn 4y ago
If the recording-in-public is for commercial purposes, yes I want to be asked for consent if for no other reason than to demand my slice of the pie.
- bigiain 4y ago

ck2 4y ago

Since just before 2016 and enforced by the pandemic, it's pretty obvious if you are going through life relying on people not to take advantage of the fact that "being a dick" is a loophole while everyone else is polite or obeys the law, you are going to get run over or killed.

jamesgreenleaf 4y ago

Doesn't it differ by state law? I thought it was generally legal only insofar as the use of the footage isn't commercial.

mlindner 4y ago

It's interesting as this is one area where Japanese law is significantly different from American law. It's really easy to sue people in Japan and win for people using your image without your permission. This is why you see so many videos from Japan when news agencies film on the streets they'll blur people's faces.

lupex 4y ago

The kind of behavior described in the article can be off putting and unethical. Sometimes however pushing the boundary causes positive change. I am a photography enthusiast and a lot of very impactful if not world-changing photography in the past has been called unethical in their times. Some examples are Robert Frank's "The Americans" (https://www.lensculture.com/articles/robert-frank-the-americans https://www.lensculture.com/articles/robert-frank-the-americ... https://www.nga.gov/features/robert-frank/the-americans-1955-57.html https://www.nga.gov/features/robert-frank/the-americans-1955...), Dorothea Lange's "Migrant Mother" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_Mother https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_Mother)" and Steve McCurry's "Afghan girl" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl) photos. All received harsh criticism, but also raised awareness of issues in transformative ways.