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>I do very little on the web where I actually want there to be code running on my document. Just some random examples, but how do you do your tax, pay your bil

>I do very little on the web where I actually want there to be code running on my document. Just some random examples, but how do you do your tax, pay your bills, buy/sell stuff online, make appointments etc?

colechristensen 4y ago
None of those things require client side code other than an HTTP POST. Some things yes client side code makes sense, like an appointment finder, and that’s fine, but such things make up a tiny amount of my internet activity.
- throwaway09432 4y ago
  Sure, but you are talking about a complete minimalist implementation, one that before all of this Javascript explosion, made people pull their hair out. For example you need javascript for dropdowns or form validation to begin with. I think there is a lot of stuff done by front end developers these days that people take for granted.
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    Drop downs do not require JavaScript. HTML has basic form validation and your POST endpoint needs to validate the form anyways, sending the form back to the user for corrections is not very difficult.
    - throwaway09432 4y ago
      This is just the same argument as the comments upthread rehashed. In the absolute most minimalist, hair pullingly annoying implementation, that is correct. However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript.
      - still_grokking 4y ago
        > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. Or just a proper GUI framework not based on HTML.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns Emphatically no. The absolute vast majority of those "polished dropdowns" are horrible to use, and break all possible platform conventions (for example, not accessible or usable with a keyboard) > countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. Very few, if any, "polished controls" used on the absolute vast majority of web sites require javascript.
        throwaway09432 4y ago
        Emphatically yes. The most popular UI framework's dropdown component, documentation reads as follows: "Dropdowns are toggleable, contextual overlays for displaying lists of links and more. They’re made interactive with the included Bootstrap dropdown JavaScript plugin"
        dmitriid 4y ago
        Bootstrap dropdowns: - don't follow platform conventions (don't trigger the actual system dropdowns with actual expected behavior) - get cutoff by browser chrome when page is zoomed in (because you can't control that behavior from JS) - default implementation's touch targets are too small And that's for a framework which has had over a decade to make this work. This is not to throw undue shade: they've done a very good job. But that's about as far as you can get.
      - giantrobot 4y ago
        > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. I got one can do without the "polish I am used to". I'm generally fine with HTML form controls. My problem with JavaScript frameworks is they are huge beasts that build their components out of non-semantic block elements. A button or text field is just a giant mass of divs and spans with events attached everywhere with one-off CSS. The browser is stuck doing tons of work in its single-threaded JavaScript engine to build and manage these components. It's a lot of wasted memory and clock cycles to recreate a text field the browser already provides. It makes for a worse user experience, wastes my battery, and eats up my bandwidth. To me it's not polish but waste.
wtetzner 4y ago
Can’t all of that be done with simple form submissions?
still_grokking 4y ago
How did the people do all of that without the modern web? How could humanity actually survive so long without web browsers? If you think about that maybe you come also to some conclusions regarding the questions you just asked.
- throwaway09432 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    Which just strengthens my point.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

colechristensen 4y ago

None of those things require client side code other than an HTTP POST. Some things yes client side code makes sense, like an appointment finder, and that’s fine, but such things make up a tiny amount of my internet activity.

throwaway09432 4y ago
Sure, but you are talking about a complete minimalist implementation, one that before all of this Javascript explosion, made people pull their hair out. For example you need javascript for dropdowns or form validation to begin with. I think there is a lot of stuff done by front end developers these days that people take for granted.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  Drop downs do not require JavaScript. HTML has basic form validation and your POST endpoint needs to validate the form anyways, sending the form back to the user for corrections is not very difficult.
  - throwaway09432 4y ago
    This is just the same argument as the comments upthread rehashed. In the absolute most minimalist, hair pullingly annoying implementation, that is correct. However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript.
    - still_grokking 4y ago
      > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. Or just a proper GUI framework not based on HTML.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns Emphatically no. The absolute vast majority of those "polished dropdowns" are horrible to use, and break all possible platform conventions (for example, not accessible or usable with a keyboard) > countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. Very few, if any, "polished controls" used on the absolute vast majority of web sites require javascript.
      - throwaway09432 4y ago
        Emphatically yes. The most popular UI framework's dropdown component, documentation reads as follows: "Dropdowns are toggleable, contextual overlays for displaying lists of links and more. They’re made interactive with the included Bootstrap dropdown JavaScript plugin"
        dmitriid 4y ago
        Bootstrap dropdowns: - don't follow platform conventions (don't trigger the actual system dropdowns with actual expected behavior) - get cutoff by browser chrome when page is zoomed in (because you can't control that behavior from JS) - default implementation's touch targets are too small And that's for a framework which has had over a decade to make this work. This is not to throw undue shade: they've done a very good job. But that's about as far as you can get.
    - giantrobot 4y ago
      > However the polish you are used to on dropdowns plus countless other controls you interact with every day require javascript. I got one can do without the "polish I am used to". I'm generally fine with HTML form controls. My problem with JavaScript frameworks is they are huge beasts that build their components out of non-semantic block elements. A button or text field is just a giant mass of divs and spans with events attached everywhere with one-off CSS. The browser is stuck doing tons of work in its single-threaded JavaScript engine to build and manage these components. It's a lot of wasted memory and clock cycles to recreate a text field the browser already provides. It makes for a worse user experience, wastes my battery, and eats up my bandwidth. To me it's not polish but waste.

wtetzner 4y ago

Can’t all of that be done with simple form submissions?

still_grokking 4y ago

How did the people do all of that without the modern web? How could humanity actually survive so long without web browsers? If you think about that maybe you come also to some conclusions regarding the questions you just asked.

throwaway09432 4y ago
[flagged]
- still_grokking 4y ago
  Which just strengthens my point.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]