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Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the government, but generally in everyday life. Most people have war stories related to accountants, lawyers, banks, telecom companies or landlords. The real kicker was when they realised that the 20% didn’t include social security payments, bringing most of them (those that didn’t pay hefty fees to set up companies in tax havens, and pay themselves exclusively in dividends) to an effective rate that wasn’t that far off what they’d be paying elsewhere. Needless to say the expat churn has been quite high. Regarding Airbnbs and rising housing prices - I’m no economist but intuitively, I’ve always thought it made more sense to blame the explosive growth in tourism Portugal has had in the last decade or so (6M tourists visiting Lisbon, a city of 500k people) rather than the 10-20k digital nomads. Would be curious to know if anyone has better numbers or studies.

mancerayder 4y ago
> Regarding Airbnbs and rising housing prices Didn't they recently crack down on Airbnb's, adding requirements that should theoretically lower the drive to turn unoccupied housing into Airbnb's (essentially limiting people purchasing flats with this intention)?
user_named 4y ago
Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.
- AYBABTME 4y ago
  Agreed. Expats don't remember the bureaucracy they had to deal with in their own countries, because they did it: - over the years - step by step - with the help of their parents or simply their parents took care of most things when they were young/born/growing up. Then they arrive in a new country and realize what it's like to administratively become a functional resident. You probably got your first bank account in your teenage, your national IDs as a newborn, etc. Then you move elsewhere and you need to create all these things from scratch and discover them also.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    This is likely the best comment in this thread.
  - ankushb 4y ago
    Clearly you haven't been to the efficient country like Singapore, Switzerland.
    - Gud 4y ago
      Seconded. I moved from Sweden to Switzerland (Aargau) and I was in awe of how little nonsense there’s been.
    - ornornor 4y ago
      Swiss bureaucracy is expensive but it’s swift, easy, and very cordial. I’ve never lived anywhere that was so good on paperwork. Exchange my non EEU drivers license? A week flat and about 100.-. Getting a residence permit? 100.- approx and less than two weeks. Questions about your tax return or filing? An email to the cantonal tax office and you’ll get an (encrypted answer) within a few days. That’s only about the government though, private companies are hilariously terrible at customer service or paperwork especially compared to US/Canada.
      - soco 4y ago
        You mean, private companies are "streamlining their customer service" or whatever the name of the day is. And it's not only in Switzerland, everywhere it's just incredibly hostile, to the point where you feel like smashing some office windows just because.
        ornornor 4y ago
        It feels more like the general attitude is “you should be glad we’re letting you give us your money. Now shut up and go away.” You’ll never get an apology, never get an easy refund because they goofed up. No. You’ll struggle, waste your time, and get nowhere. But I guess this is an EU thing compared to what I’m used to in Canada and the US.
- 8ytecoder 4y ago
  Slightly off topic but I see this often enough and I’m curious to know, when do you call someone moving to another to work an expat instead of an immigrant.
  - weberer 4y ago
    Expats are usually on temporary visas and don't apply for citizenship.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    You immigrate (verb) into a country. That makes you an immigrant (noun) of your new country. You emigrate (verb) out of a country. That makes you an emigrant (noun) of your old country. You expatriate (verb) to a country, from your homeland. You are an expatriate (noun) (aka expat) if you live in a country other than your native one. For example, an American-born man who moved to Germany for part of their career and is living in Vietnam for retirement would be an American expat, who immigrated to Vietnam and emigrated from Germany. You are often all 3 of them at once, depending on perspective. Colloquially, expats usually emigrate out of their homeland for specific reasons, usually either climate, culture, taxes. Eg. someone would expatriate to Portugal to take advantage of the tax scheme (this article), or maybe expatriate to Mexico for 'better' weather, or maybe expatriates to Paris for the cultural experience. It is often assumed or implied that an expat has no intention of "integrating" in the culture of their host nation. Eg. an American in Mexico that moved for the weather wouldn't raise children there or apply for citizenship, but simply enjoy retiring on the beach and taking advantage of the cheaper CoL. They may still primarily speak English and seek out fellow Americans-in-mexico to socialize with instead of the locals. Conversely, a full Mexican family (parents+kids) that moved to America "for a better life" may not be considered an expat, since they intend to become citizens of America and raise their family as Americans. That is why expats sometimes have a poor reputation in their host nation, compared to other "immigrants".
  - vkou 4y ago
    Someone moving from a wealthy country to a poorer one is an expat. Someone moving from a poor country to a wealthier one is an immigrant if they intend to stay for life, and a migrant if they don't. That's why you have American expats living in Thailand and Mexico, but Thai immigrants and Mexican migrants living in America.
- fy20 4y ago
  I'm not sure about Portugal, but a few years ago my wife was studying in Spain on a study abroad program. She is from another EU country, and we'd visited Spain a few times, so figured it would be easy. Pretty much every step of the way we encountered so much more bureaucracy (I am an immigrant to her country) than we could even imagine. She spoke Spanish, but if she didn't it would have been a million times harder. For example we wanted to get internet in the apartment we were renting. The local ISP (Orange) said that we needed a Spanish bank account, we said that we had a European account so could make an IBAN transfer, but apparently that wasn't an option. So we went to the bank and they said my wife needed a letter from the police. So we went there, and after showing all her university documents and waiting there for half a day, she got that. By that time the bank was closed, so we went back the next day, and after another few hours she had a bank account. We made a transfer of a few hundred euros from our other European account at home, then once it arrived a few days later, went back to the ISP. They took our details and the first payment, and then we figured everything was fine. A month later the first bill came and we tried to pay but it was declined, tried to log into online banking and that was blocked too. We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. So we went to visit the ISP with the intention of paying in store, but they said it wasn't an option. We explained the situation and said there was nothing they could do, we could only pay with a Spanish bank account. In the end we had to get a friend to make the ISP payment for us, every month while we were living there. Compare this to where we live now. You simply make payments to an IBAN bank account, so it can come from anywhere in Europe. If you need a local bank account, you can easily do so in any bank (I opened an account before I was officially living there, i.e. without any local ID, just my passport) or use something like Revolut. If you need to get a local phone number, you just go to the supermarket and buy a prepaid SIM for €1 - no ID needed.
  - pixard 4y ago
    Where do you live now (if you're comfortable sharing)?
  - deanCommie 4y ago
    This is a fairly long story but only one part of this seems like genuine "bureaucracy": > We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. That's an absolute nightmare (though I don't understand how you weren't notified, or what the recourse typically is for accounts closed due to "suspicious activity". The rest can be summarized as: * A business wants billing from a local bank account (not universal, but not unusual) * Opening a local bank account needs some information confirming your identity, which the police can do. * Getting these forms isn't instant * Banks don't have long opening hours
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  I moved back to my native Netherlands after several years abroad and encountered significant problems with the bureaucracy, more so than in any foreign country I've lived. I don't think it's an expat problem, rather it's a "if you fall slightly outside of the happy path then you can expect to run in to a lot of trouble"-problem. It's just that expats are a group of people that fairly frequently tend to fall outside of the happy path.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    I have heard the same from some Dutch people I know, particularly around the topic of the tax office.
  - smueller1234 4y ago
    This is it, 100%. Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! By the way, I've lived in a few European countries and researched many others. The Netherlands was by far the easiest/most efficient in terms of bureaucracy.
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      > Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! If only. Instead you run in to catch-22s and simply get a shrug and "it's not possible". The big downside of being the "easiest/most efficient" is that it deals with exceptions poorly; once you fall outside of the "efficient" workflow you're screwed. Lots of people run in to problems with this and people literally become homeless because of this. Ironically, it's easier if you're actually homeless and sleeping on the street – as opposed to being homeless and having enough money to stay at hotels or are temporarily staying with friends – as there are some special exceptions for people registered at the salvation army and such.
      - MaxPengwing 4y ago
        This is exactly why I a native Swede had to leave Sweden for Ireland. Im now back in Sweden and jesus christ the bureaucracy is insanely streamlined and optimised for the upper middle class happy path people. Everyone else is looked upon with confusion and disgust.
- nmfisher 4y ago
  Except when you're an expat in a country that actually knows what it's doing, like Singapore. Bureaucracy here is A+, and is the yardstick we should measure every country against.
- csomar 4y ago
  There is bureaucracy and then there is bureaucracy. Here is an example: Malaysia and Indonesia. Each country has its own bureaucratic nightmares but you can make useful comparisons. Malaysia: Easy to get a phone number. Easy to get an internet hotspot to get data. Reliable internet. Internet is fully open (no censorship). Indonesia: Hard to get a phone number. Confusing choices and prices with Whatsapp/FB mingled in the choices. Have to submit your passport photo to some dodgy dude, who has to get a certain authorization. Took half a day for the Internet to activate. Data is not very reliable. Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. So sure as an expat you'll face bureaucracy but some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit. This makes you lose significant time for relatively simple things (at least in other countries).
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    > Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. This depends on your ISP I believe; Telkom blocks Reddit, but I believe others do allow it. You don't need a VPN to bypass it, DNS-over-HTTPS will do as well. In general things in Indonesia seem to be ... complicated. Just buying something at the local Indomaret sometimes seemed to involve typing an entire essay on a computer.
  - louison11 4y ago
    "some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit." Haha. Love it. That sums up a lot of Portuguese administrations sadly.
- stanislavb 4y ago
  Well, that's not exactly always true. I've had zero problems with bureaucracy since moving to Australia. My case has been that everything just works - minimal human involvement, and when it's present - it's pretty optimized. I think that due to the high cost of labour (highest minimal pay in the world) and lack of labour due to higher speed of development - whatever that can be automated has been automated.
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Same experience in NZ - you only start to see how hopeless europe is when you come back. I had 0 interaction with gov clark in nearly a decade in NZ, while in europe any sort of errand would require in face meetings. Even some digital forms would just email the form to a person in ivory tower for validation, who’ll tell you to visit office anyway…
    - simongray 4y ago
      Europe is not one place with one single bureaucracy.
      - dzhiurgis 4y ago
        Of course some places are better, but overall it's clearly blind to own faults.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      "Europe". Counterpoint, in France the vast majority of bureacratic things can be done fully online. Last time i had to go in person was for a passport/ID card, so there are multiple good reasons (photo, biometric info, confirm your identity) for that. Some of the websites are not great, and sometimes they send you a confirmations by mail, but otherwise a pretty painless experience.
      - dzhiurgis 4y ago
        Do you still need 3pieces of paperwork or permits just to buy a car?
- ggambetta 4y ago
  No. I'm an expat in Switzerland and dealing with the government and other institutions has been great - can't even call it a bureaucracy. For reference, I found the UK pretty sensible, Spain frustrating, and my native south american country a nightmare.
  - Izikiel43 4y ago
    Argentina!
    - ggambetta 4y ago
      Uruguay, close enough!
- louison11 4y ago
  No, Portugal is different. To give you perspective: it takes 2-3 years to exchange a foreign driver license (most foreigners I know drive illegally by now), a lot of administrations frequently “lose” applications and ask you to do it again when they have too much backlog (this cost me hundreds of dollars in back and forth, certified documents etc in the past). It’s also very common for administrations to have no one answering the phone/email. And most administrations are appointments only. So often, you kind of have to drive to different places, maybe different city halls, and hope that someone has a contact with an internal e-mail address and can hook you up. That’s just how it works. It’s the most barbaric administration and closest to a third world country I’ve experienced, and I’m French, so I know something about red tape.
  - notch656c 4y ago
    Most third world countries with such bad/slow bureaucracy solve those issues with bribery. I'd hate to live someplace that both has low corruption and such high bureaucratic burdens.
    - slaw 4y ago
      Could you give some examples of these countries?
      - notch656c 4y ago
        lmao
      - ykshev 4y ago
        Bali, $100 and you have a valid driving license in one day. Without a bribe it's almost impossible even apply
  - user_named 4y ago
    Takes 18 months to get permission for your foreign spouse to move to Sweden. It then takes 12-18 months to get into the social system - you register quickly, but for the bureaucracy to actually add you into the system takes that long. So no, you're wrong. Portugal is not different.
- ls15 4y ago
  What's wrong with complaining about sprawling bureaucracy? I can only see downsides and no upsides. Don't you want it to be eliminated? I think people are not yet complaining enough.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Unless you can complain with actionable complaints (It'd be great if i could fill this form on a website instead of on paper and mailing/faxing it), it literally serves no purpose.
    - ls15 4y ago
      Actionable advice: eliminate this step in the buraucracy that does not serve a purpose. When can I expect implementation of my idea?
- blakblakarak 4y ago
  I'm an English immgrant in France - lots of my compatriots complain about French bureaucracy but in all honesty it's far more efficient and accessible than it is in the UK.
sho 4y ago
> those that didn’t pay hefty fees to set up companies in tax havens I suppose it depends on your definition of "hefty" but a couple of thousand USD is usually sufficient, depending on jurisdiction, and obviously is expected to pay for itself many (, many, many) times over. It's not that hard and it's not just for the 1%. Especially if you're anything approaching a "digital nomad" I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't establish a consulting company somewhere offshore, bill from that, pay yourself a quarterly dividend and then import only the money you actually need.
- alzamos 4y ago
  I’ve not looked into it personally, but I’ll relay what I’ve heard from various people who have looked into this or successfully done this. In one case one person, as you say, did everything on their own and pays a couple thousand every year to keep the entity in the favourable jurisdiction. When asked if it was all above-board, they said it was one of those grey areas where they hoped the govt didn’t look too deeply into it, but so long as they weren’t making millions they weren’t worried about an audit. The other cases asked various accounting companies to set this scenario up for them (one to establish a software engineering consulting company, others to set up other companies). The responses ranged from “yes we can do this, it’ll cost you 15-20k upfront, then 5k in annual upkeep” to “no this isn’t looked upon too well by the Portuguese govt”.
  - sho 4y ago
    Well, your first example is a good "what not to do". Doesn't sound like much of a "grey area" if they're living in fear of being found out. I don't understand this kind of setup - financial information is permanent and once governments get their shit together there will be no safe havens, and this will apply retroactively. People playing such games are going to feel a lot of pain some coming day, I suspect. I have to admit I don't know anything about Portugal but with a little research it is very possible to find a territorial tax-based country to live, where one does not owe any money on overseas income, and live completely legally there as a tax resident, taxed only only your minimal local salary - if that. Now I suppose that's not for everyone but if people were moving to Portugal specifically for tax reasons then I'm surprised they didn't, you know, check it out a bit first.
tluyben2 4y ago
> I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered You need someone (in Spain it's called gestor) who does all of that for you. I live in Portugal, by now I speak the language but I don't get the rules etc. I have a guy who does everything, never had any issues. It's very cheap.
- siwatanejo 4y ago
  Does he take crypto as payment? If yes, pls pass me his contact :)
jacquesm 4y ago
The digital nomads are going to soak up a good 3 to 5% of the total housing on a permanent basis, that's a pretty good dent in the reservoir. Tourists predominantly stay in hotels or other short-stay places. Though AirBNB and so on also result in the conversion of some of that available housing into short stay 'hotels' which will put more pressure on that reservoir. Typically in any city the vast bulk of the housing is spoken for, and only a relatively small part is available for newcomers or people that move out of their parents place when they come of age. So I would not underestimate the impact even if it is only 10 to 20K individuals. Finally: tourists spend a lot, typical budgets are many 100's of euros / day for a family. Digital nomads comparatively little.
- djbebs 4y ago
  There is no lack of space in portugal to build housing in. The "housing crisis" is 100% a political choice by portuguese voters.

mancerayder 4y ago

> Regarding Airbnbs and rising housing prices Didn't they recently crack down on Airbnb's, adding requirements that should theoretically lower the drive to turn unoccupied housing into Airbnb's (essentially limiting people purchasing flats with this intention)?

user_named 4y ago

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

AYBABTME 4y ago
Agreed. Expats don't remember the bureaucracy they had to deal with in their own countries, because they did it: - over the years - step by step - with the help of their parents or simply their parents took care of most things when they were young/born/growing up. Then they arrive in a new country and realize what it's like to administratively become a functional resident. You probably got your first bank account in your teenage, your national IDs as a newborn, etc. Then you move elsewhere and you need to create all these things from scratch and discover them also.
- unity1001 4y ago
  This is likely the best comment in this thread.
- ankushb 4y ago
  Clearly you haven't been to the efficient country like Singapore, Switzerland.
  - Gud 4y ago
    Seconded. I moved from Sweden to Switzerland (Aargau) and I was in awe of how little nonsense there’s been.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Swiss bureaucracy is expensive but it’s swift, easy, and very cordial. I’ve never lived anywhere that was so good on paperwork. Exchange my non EEU drivers license? A week flat and about 100.-. Getting a residence permit? 100.- approx and less than two weeks. Questions about your tax return or filing? An email to the cantonal tax office and you’ll get an (encrypted answer) within a few days. That’s only about the government though, private companies are hilariously terrible at customer service or paperwork especially compared to US/Canada.
    - soco 4y ago
      You mean, private companies are "streamlining their customer service" or whatever the name of the day is. And it's not only in Switzerland, everywhere it's just incredibly hostile, to the point where you feel like smashing some office windows just because.
      - ornornor 4y ago
        It feels more like the general attitude is “you should be glad we’re letting you give us your money. Now shut up and go away.” You’ll never get an apology, never get an easy refund because they goofed up. No. You’ll struggle, waste your time, and get nowhere. But I guess this is an EU thing compared to what I’m used to in Canada and the US.
8ytecoder 4y ago
Slightly off topic but I see this often enough and I’m curious to know, when do you call someone moving to another to work an expat instead of an immigrant.
- weberer 4y ago
  Expats are usually on temporary visas and don't apply for citizenship.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  You immigrate (verb) into a country. That makes you an immigrant (noun) of your new country. You emigrate (verb) out of a country. That makes you an emigrant (noun) of your old country. You expatriate (verb) to a country, from your homeland. You are an expatriate (noun) (aka expat) if you live in a country other than your native one. For example, an American-born man who moved to Germany for part of their career and is living in Vietnam for retirement would be an American expat, who immigrated to Vietnam and emigrated from Germany. You are often all 3 of them at once, depending on perspective. Colloquially, expats usually emigrate out of their homeland for specific reasons, usually either climate, culture, taxes. Eg. someone would expatriate to Portugal to take advantage of the tax scheme (this article), or maybe expatriate to Mexico for 'better' weather, or maybe expatriates to Paris for the cultural experience. It is often assumed or implied that an expat has no intention of "integrating" in the culture of their host nation. Eg. an American in Mexico that moved for the weather wouldn't raise children there or apply for citizenship, but simply enjoy retiring on the beach and taking advantage of the cheaper CoL. They may still primarily speak English and seek out fellow Americans-in-mexico to socialize with instead of the locals. Conversely, a full Mexican family (parents+kids) that moved to America "for a better life" may not be considered an expat, since they intend to become citizens of America and raise their family as Americans. That is why expats sometimes have a poor reputation in their host nation, compared to other "immigrants".
- vkou 4y ago
  Someone moving from a wealthy country to a poorer one is an expat. Someone moving from a poor country to a wealthier one is an immigrant if they intend to stay for life, and a migrant if they don't. That's why you have American expats living in Thailand and Mexico, but Thai immigrants and Mexican migrants living in America.
fy20 4y ago
I'm not sure about Portugal, but a few years ago my wife was studying in Spain on a study abroad program. She is from another EU country, and we'd visited Spain a few times, so figured it would be easy. Pretty much every step of the way we encountered so much more bureaucracy (I am an immigrant to her country) than we could even imagine. She spoke Spanish, but if she didn't it would have been a million times harder. For example we wanted to get internet in the apartment we were renting. The local ISP (Orange) said that we needed a Spanish bank account, we said that we had a European account so could make an IBAN transfer, but apparently that wasn't an option. So we went to the bank and they said my wife needed a letter from the police. So we went there, and after showing all her university documents and waiting there for half a day, she got that. By that time the bank was closed, so we went back the next day, and after another few hours she had a bank account. We made a transfer of a few hundred euros from our other European account at home, then once it arrived a few days later, went back to the ISP. They took our details and the first payment, and then we figured everything was fine. A month later the first bill came and we tried to pay but it was declined, tried to log into online banking and that was blocked too. We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. So we went to visit the ISP with the intention of paying in store, but they said it wasn't an option. We explained the situation and said there was nothing they could do, we could only pay with a Spanish bank account. In the end we had to get a friend to make the ISP payment for us, every month while we were living there. Compare this to where we live now. You simply make payments to an IBAN bank account, so it can come from anywhere in Europe. If you need a local bank account, you can easily do so in any bank (I opened an account before I was officially living there, i.e. without any local ID, just my passport) or use something like Revolut. If you need to get a local phone number, you just go to the supermarket and buy a prepaid SIM for €1 - no ID needed.
- pixard 4y ago
  Where do you live now (if you're comfortable sharing)?
- deanCommie 4y ago
  This is a fairly long story but only one part of this seems like genuine "bureaucracy": > We went back to the bank (BBVA) and they said our account had been closed due to suspicious activity (the only transaction we made was the initial payment for the internet) and there was nothing they could do. That's an absolute nightmare (though I don't understand how you weren't notified, or what the recourse typically is for accounts closed due to "suspicious activity". The rest can be summarized as: * A business wants billing from a local bank account (not universal, but not unusual) * Opening a local bank account needs some information confirming your identity, which the police can do. * Getting these forms isn't instant * Banks don't have long opening hours
Beltalowda 4y ago
I moved back to my native Netherlands after several years abroad and encountered significant problems with the bureaucracy, more so than in any foreign country I've lived. I don't think it's an expat problem, rather it's a "if you fall slightly outside of the happy path then you can expect to run in to a lot of trouble"-problem. It's just that expats are a group of people that fairly frequently tend to fall outside of the happy path.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  I have heard the same from some Dutch people I know, particularly around the topic of the tax office.
- smueller1234 4y ago
  This is it, 100%. Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! By the way, I've lived in a few European countries and researched many others. The Netherlands was by far the easiest/most efficient in terms of bureaucracy.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    > Anything non standard and you get the long forms instead! If only. Instead you run in to catch-22s and simply get a shrug and "it's not possible". The big downside of being the "easiest/most efficient" is that it deals with exceptions poorly; once you fall outside of the "efficient" workflow you're screwed. Lots of people run in to problems with this and people literally become homeless because of this. Ironically, it's easier if you're actually homeless and sleeping on the street – as opposed to being homeless and having enough money to stay at hotels or are temporarily staying with friends – as there are some special exceptions for people registered at the salvation army and such.
    - MaxPengwing 4y ago
      This is exactly why I a native Swede had to leave Sweden for Ireland. Im now back in Sweden and jesus christ the bureaucracy is insanely streamlined and optimised for the upper middle class happy path people. Everyone else is looked upon with confusion and disgust.
nmfisher 4y ago
Except when you're an expat in a country that actually knows what it's doing, like Singapore. Bureaucracy here is A+, and is the yardstick we should measure every country against.
csomar 4y ago
There is bureaucracy and then there is bureaucracy. Here is an example: Malaysia and Indonesia. Each country has its own bureaucratic nightmares but you can make useful comparisons. Malaysia: Easy to get a phone number. Easy to get an internet hotspot to get data. Reliable internet. Internet is fully open (no censorship). Indonesia: Hard to get a phone number. Confusing choices and prices with Whatsapp/FB mingled in the choices. Have to submit your passport photo to some dodgy dude, who has to get a certain authorization. Took half a day for the Internet to activate. Data is not very reliable. Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. So sure as an expat you'll face bureaucracy but some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit. This makes you lose significant time for relatively simple things (at least in other countries).
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing. This depends on your ISP I believe; Telkom blocks Reddit, but I believe others do allow it. You don't need a VPN to bypass it, DNS-over-HTTPS will do as well. In general things in Indonesia seem to be ... complicated. Just buying something at the local Indomaret sometimes seemed to involve typing an entire essay on a computer.
- louison11 4y ago
  "some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit." Haha. Love it. That sums up a lot of Portuguese administrations sadly.
stanislavb 4y ago
Well, that's not exactly always true. I've had zero problems with bureaucracy since moving to Australia. My case has been that everything just works - minimal human involvement, and when it's present - it's pretty optimized. I think that due to the high cost of labour (highest minimal pay in the world) and lack of labour due to higher speed of development - whatever that can be automated has been automated.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Same experience in NZ - you only start to see how hopeless europe is when you come back. I had 0 interaction with gov clark in nearly a decade in NZ, while in europe any sort of errand would require in face meetings. Even some digital forms would just email the form to a person in ivory tower for validation, who’ll tell you to visit office anyway…
  - simongray 4y ago
    Europe is not one place with one single bureaucracy.
    - dzhiurgis 4y ago
      Of course some places are better, but overall it's clearly blind to own faults.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    "Europe". Counterpoint, in France the vast majority of bureacratic things can be done fully online. Last time i had to go in person was for a passport/ID card, so there are multiple good reasons (photo, biometric info, confirm your identity) for that. Some of the websites are not great, and sometimes they send you a confirmations by mail, but otherwise a pretty painless experience.
    - dzhiurgis 4y ago
      Do you still need 3pieces of paperwork or permits just to buy a car?
ggambetta 4y ago
No. I'm an expat in Switzerland and dealing with the government and other institutions has been great - can't even call it a bureaucracy. For reference, I found the UK pretty sensible, Spain frustrating, and my native south american country a nightmare.
- Izikiel43 4y ago
  Argentina!
  - ggambetta 4y ago
    Uruguay, close enough!
louison11 4y ago
No, Portugal is different. To give you perspective: it takes 2-3 years to exchange a foreign driver license (most foreigners I know drive illegally by now), a lot of administrations frequently “lose” applications and ask you to do it again when they have too much backlog (this cost me hundreds of dollars in back and forth, certified documents etc in the past). It’s also very common for administrations to have no one answering the phone/email. And most administrations are appointments only. So often, you kind of have to drive to different places, maybe different city halls, and hope that someone has a contact with an internal e-mail address and can hook you up. That’s just how it works. It’s the most barbaric administration and closest to a third world country I’ve experienced, and I’m French, so I know something about red tape.
- notch656c 4y ago
  Most third world countries with such bad/slow bureaucracy solve those issues with bribery. I'd hate to live someplace that both has low corruption and such high bureaucratic burdens.
  - slaw 4y ago
    Could you give some examples of these countries?
    - notch656c 4y ago
      lmao
    - ykshev 4y ago
      Bali, $100 and you have a valid driving license in one day. Without a bribe it's almost impossible even apply
- user_named 4y ago
  Takes 18 months to get permission for your foreign spouse to move to Sweden. It then takes 12-18 months to get into the social system - you register quickly, but for the bureaucracy to actually add you into the system takes that long. So no, you're wrong. Portugal is not different.
ls15 4y ago
What's wrong with complaining about sprawling bureaucracy? I can only see downsides and no upsides. Don't you want it to be eliminated? I think people are not yet complaining enough.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Unless you can complain with actionable complaints (It'd be great if i could fill this form on a website instead of on paper and mailing/faxing it), it literally serves no purpose.
  - ls15 4y ago
    Actionable advice: eliminate this step in the buraucracy that does not serve a purpose. When can I expect implementation of my idea?
blakblakarak 4y ago
I'm an English immgrant in France - lots of my compatriots complain about French bureaucracy but in all honesty it's far more efficient and accessible than it is in the UK.

sho 4y ago

> those that didn’t pay hefty fees to set up companies in tax havens I suppose it depends on your definition of "hefty" but a couple of thousand USD is usually sufficient, depending on jurisdiction, and obviously is expected to pay for itself many (, many, many) times over. It's not that hard and it's not just for the 1%. Especially if you're anything approaching a "digital nomad" I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't establish a consulting company somewhere offshore, bill from that, pay yourself a quarterly dividend and then import only the money you actually need.

alzamos 4y ago
I’ve not looked into it personally, but I’ll relay what I’ve heard from various people who have looked into this or successfully done this. In one case one person, as you say, did everything on their own and pays a couple thousand every year to keep the entity in the favourable jurisdiction. When asked if it was all above-board, they said it was one of those grey areas where they hoped the govt didn’t look too deeply into it, but so long as they weren’t making millions they weren’t worried about an audit. The other cases asked various accounting companies to set this scenario up for them (one to establish a software engineering consulting company, others to set up other companies). The responses ranged from “yes we can do this, it’ll cost you 15-20k upfront, then 5k in annual upkeep” to “no this isn’t looked upon too well by the Portuguese govt”.
- sho 4y ago
  Well, your first example is a good "what not to do". Doesn't sound like much of a "grey area" if they're living in fear of being found out. I don't understand this kind of setup - financial information is permanent and once governments get their shit together there will be no safe havens, and this will apply retroactively. People playing such games are going to feel a lot of pain some coming day, I suspect. I have to admit I don't know anything about Portugal but with a little research it is very possible to find a territorial tax-based country to live, where one does not owe any money on overseas income, and live completely legally there as a tax resident, taxed only only your minimal local salary - if that. Now I suppose that's not for everyone but if people were moving to Portugal specifically for tax reasons then I'm surprised they didn't, you know, check it out a bit first.

tluyben2 4y ago

> I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered You need someone (in Spain it's called gestor) who does all of that for you. I live in Portugal, by now I speak the language but I don't get the rules etc. I have a guy who does everything, never had any issues. It's very cheap.

siwatanejo 4y ago
Does he take crypto as payment? If yes, pls pass me his contact :)

jacquesm 4y ago

The digital nomads are going to soak up a good 3 to 5% of the total housing on a permanent basis, that's a pretty good dent in the reservoir. Tourists predominantly stay in hotels or other short-stay places. Though AirBNB and so on also result in the conversion of some of that available housing into short stay 'hotels' which will put more pressure on that reservoir. Typically in any city the vast bulk of the housing is spoken for, and only a relatively small part is available for newcomers or people that move out of their parents place when they come of age. So I would not underestimate the impact even if it is only 10 to 20K individuals. Finally: tourists spend a lot, typical budgets are many 100's of euros / day for a family. Digital nomads comparatively little.

djbebs 4y ago
There is no lack of space in portugal to build housing in. The "housing crisis" is 100% a political choice by portuguese voters.